Superweapons: Why do people hate them in skirmish games?

[IxianMace]

Well that's just part of the strategy of the game I guess. You have to defend your harvesters as well. The non-spice maps get boring because everyone mostly turtles up in their base, and waits for the cash to come in, before they even think about building up a main attack force.

[Devastator_Mech]

Its more fun like that, you think finishing the game in 10 mins would be fun?

[IxianMace]

Finishing the game in 10 minutes would be fun yes. It the long games that get boring, because by then people have to build their stuff up, go to the enemy base and attack. Rush games that end in 5 or 10 minutes can be quite fun because the action is fast paced, and you have to think, and play quickly.

[Devastator_Mech]

Maybe thats to you, but i like fighting after stablizing my base defence first, and if you could still defeat me, then i'll truely believe i've been owned.

[Timenn]

Hmmm, superweapons??

Who finds them useful and nice, and who finds them annoying?

Maybe we can discuss about new ideas for superweapons for Emperor, 1 for Harkonnen, 1 for Atreides, and 1 for Ordos...

[RequiemXi]

Well, there's a few problems with Spice harvesting as opposed to say, Ore or Tiberium harvesting.

1.) the Carry-alls are profoundly stupid, as we

all know.

2.) its harder to provide adequate defence to harvesters because of sandworms, as well as the fact that Spice harvesters tend to move around alot more from patch to patch as opposed to C&C/RA Harvesters

The fixed income maps are nice in that they allow you to focus totally on your attack/defend strategy, and not having to babysit Harvesters.

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For Super Weapons, things like the Chaos Lightning are good, or a Chrono Shift type thing. Passive effects, not just a one-click deathdrop on your enemy's base. Perhaps just being able to build a certain powerful unit like the Mammoth mk2 or Cyborg Commando from C&C. That way it would be something your opponent can actually defend against. So instead of a Death's Hand missle, you could have a Death's Hand Missle Launcher or something (with much less powerful warheads of course)

[Timenn]

Stating about superweapons from other games ok, but do they fit in this Duniverse? A chrono-shit might be a good idea. Or a temporary House Shield? But what about balancing?

[RequiemXi]

I was just using them as refrence ;D

The NIAB tank's space folding is pretty much identical to the Chrono Shift effect. Maybe you could have an "area of effect" type thing where you could group some units together and hit the general vacinity with a Space Fold effect and have them warp anywhere on the map? ;D For Ordos, maybe a cloaking field you could use in the same fashion that would give all effected units free cloaking. Or perhaps something like a Gap Generator (a tower you could place somwhere in your base that would cover a certain area with the "fog of war" shroud.) Something like that would fit well with the Ordos' "covert" persona.

Having a mobile death's hand launcher, or perhaps even a mobile chaos lightning machine would be cool. I don't know about Atredies, maybe they could build a special airborn unit?

[ken124578]

I was just using them as refrence ;D

The NIAB tank's space folding is pretty much identical to the Chrono Shift effect. Maybe you could have an "area of effect" type thing where you could group some units together and hit the general vacinity with a Space Fold effect and have them warp anywhere on the map? ;D For Ordos, maybe a cloaking field you could use in the same fashion that would give all effected units free cloaking. Or perhaps something like a Gap Generator (a tower you could place somwhere in your base that would cover a certain area with the "fog of war" shroud.) Something like that would fit well with the Ordos' "covert" persona.

Having a mobile death's hand launcher, or perhaps even a mobile chaos lightning machine would be cool. I don't know about Atredies, maybe they could build a special airborn unit?

deadlyfred: this cannot be in emperor and will never be because it would not be balanced, everyone would just make an few of those and they've won.

[Timenn]

Are you refering to his last ideas, about mobile superweapon cannons

[ken124578]

yes i was referring to those, i could just make some mobile superweapon tanks/infantry men and i've won the game.

its not fair, superweapons are unstoppable when they're released, fired, fully charged so mobile superweapon tanks/infantry men are just as "indestructable" as superweapons.

[Timenn]

Yes, so we must think of superweapons 'fired' from the palace?

[ken124578]

erm ???

i was saying that there should not be mobile superweapon units because units haven't got an long re-loading time/they don't require energy, they don't give warning when they shoot.

[RequiemXi]

Well, if you've not played Tiberian Sun, the "super" units all had a build limit of 1, and were quite expensive. They were very effective, even on their own, but still not near powerful enough to put a sizable dent in your average base.

You can give units as long a reload time as you want to :O ... like the V2 rockets in RA2, take FOREVER to reload and they're just normal run of the mill artillery.

also, they WOULD give a warning, because you'd SEE them moving into range to fire. I'm also not saying that a mobile death's hand would launch the same time of warhead as the current Super weapon.

[ken124578]

[volor=silver] i can't imagine an unit taking an few minutes before firing, i just don't like the idea of an mobile superweapon unit, it sounds overbalanced IMO.

[RequiemXi]

'ey, just throwing out ideas to discuss, man ;D

[Timenn]

Hmm, but we were more talking about superweapons rather then superunits, when you mean superunits of TS, I think you mean units like the Mammoth or the Hijacker etc.

But superweapons are things like Hawk Strike, Chaos Lightning, Missiles, Chrono Shift, you see they are all NOT place-bound, they can affect the entire battle field.

[RobertF2002]

;D Its alright!In my new mod (That I haven't Relesed yet)Theres A House Named Deathens And there superweapon is an Earthquake that can damage 97% of all units and vheicles

P.S. It wont kill infantry

But I think its fun because the enemys attack eachother and not me! ;D

[Devastator_Mech]

Who think which house has the best SW, i think its the Chaos Lighting, the Hawk Strike is rubbish, and even the Death Hand won't destroy anymore than a few windtraps.

[IxianMace]

The Hawk Strike is only useful against fast units like Ordos Laser Tanks and Dust Scouts. It can be very effective against enemy aircraft however. The Death hand will destroy much more than just a few windtraps, it can wipe out anything on the battlefield in 1 hit, except for the Construction yard, Refinery, Factory, and Guild Palace. I think the Tleilaxu flesh vat is also a little resistant to the death hand. Chaos lightning is only useful against units that are bunched up together, and if there are no walls or obstructions in the way. Two minos standing right next to each other often just try to walk into each other without firing, so Chaos lightning isn't that good. I think the Death hand missile is the best superweapon, simply because of the guaranteed damage/destruction it causes, and the radiation that lingers afterward. The radiation has real potential to cause damage, even after the main blast is gone. ;D

[Devastator_Mech]

Damage that is si little that i wouldn't even care, it can't destroy Construction yard, Refinery and Factory? Thats all its needs, i could build the building you have destryoed back in a very short time.

For the mino bit, i've never seen that happen, are you sure? Their must be a very rare bug.

[IxianMace]

Well try playing Emperor more offline against the AI and use Superweapons against it more often. You'll probably encounter some frustrating events like the incident with the minos that I just mentioned.

[Devastator_Mech]

Ok, i'll see, but problem cewrtainly hasn't happened to me yet.

When you are playing in a tournement, are you allow to use SW?

[ken124578]

the Death Hand won't destroy anymore than a few windtraps.

windtraps are IMPORTANT, if you lost you're windtraps you'll have to re-build them, which costs time/money and units, you can't lose time/money or units in multiplayer or else you're dead.

[Devastator_Mech]

Even in the exciting multiplayer mode, if your base is quite stable with the units already ready, even losing ALL the windtraps for a minute isn't really that devastating to a player, but your gonna only lose a few(about 3 or 4 maximum even when they're bunched up)