Jurassic Park, reality?

[The_Sadukar]

[quote author=Edric O

Christians were also cast out of society and murdered because they refused to worship the Roman gods...

But just because that was they way things were back then doesn't mak it good!

Edric the christians weren't cast out becouse they didn't worship the roman gods, they were cast out for not worshipping the Emperor.

[Edric O]

Right. I stand corrected.

[The_Sadukar]

Submit to the power of Rome ;)

[Terror]

ROMA VICTOR!

[Edric O]

Yeah, too bad Rome lost. ;)

Now get back on topic and stop the Roman spamming! :)

[nemafakei]

Noli pernare, Romani!

(stop the Roman spamming!)

Anyway... are we to have another religion thread (it'll end with a padlock, as we all know) or will we move on?

[Edric O]

May I point your attention to the flame topic with an unpronouncable name in Gaming? It's burning for a lockdown...

As for this thread, I think it's more of a theological debate where everyone assumes God exists for the sake of the argument. I don't think it will turn into one of those endless religion topics... nobody wants that.

[nemafakei]

The thread named like an error message is locked.

We're diverting from the point of what we're assuming Got to exist for.

[Acriku]

Edric it sounds to me like you are creating your own religion. ...

I don't see how you can assume all those things from human comprehension and the little resources you have. You "say" those things, but I think you assumed them because, hey, why not? Our comprehension of the matter is like cavemen, we simply cannot comprehend God. If he existed, he would be the most complex thing every imaginable. Of course I'm doing the same thing you are Edric, assuming things from our comprehension.

[Edric O]

What things?

I assure you that all my beliefs are based on the Bible, and/or logical deductions with the Bible as starting point.

[Anathema]

Do you believe in the bilbe unconditionally, or do you believe that it has a few errors? (such as the Earth only being a few thousend years old...riiiight)

[TMA_1]

It probably is Earthnuker. But remember the 6 days were actually 6 days of restoration after satan's fall. That means it could be very ancient. Still it could be only a few thousand years. We just live by faith in christ jesus.

[Anathema]

The Earth is 5 billion years old, and it has been proven. And skelletons of dinosaurs are 65 billion years old (wich has been proven as well), whereas the modern human race has only been around for about 10000 years. I'm not mocking the bible, but there are things in it that simply cannot be true.

[Edric O]

Show me where it says in the Bible that the Earth is only a few thousand years old.

Well?

[Acriku]

Well all you have to use is logical deduction which you are already familiar with - the Bible talks about how God created the Earth, then rested, then it goes into bunch of stories. Now don't you think that if God did create the Earth billions of years ago as science has proven thus far, it would include a lot more things? Talk about plot holes ;) Besides, it states He made humans to live in garden of Eden, well you know the story, and that shows that (assuming God created Earth billions of years ago) between creating the Earth and making Adam there is a humongous "plot hole". Boy...

And how could you make logical deductions on a supposedly very very very complex creature? Maybe God rests outside all logic, who knows, but surely no one does. So to deduct into fact from the Bible is assuming. And you know where assuming can get ya...

[Anathema]

Edric, I'm not sure if they bible states that- but I do know it suggests it, and christians believed for centuries (no, 2 millenia in fact) that it was true.

But the bible does state that God created the universe and the Earth and the creatures that roam it in 6 days (and then took a well deserved rest after that work). Between the forming of the Earth and the time that it was cooled off enough to support life lies billions of years. So that part of the bible is just untrue. A huge plothole indeed ;). (if the bible was based on devine inspiration, how come it contains any plotholes at all? But drop this question, I don't want this to become a religion thread either)

Some things in the bible are beyond any doubt false, so you can't accept the bible unconditionally without dismissing centuries of science as untrue.

[Edric O]

Acriku, I'm not saying God created the Earth billions and years ago in 7 days!!! I'm saying he created the Earth in bliions of years. You know, for the first 3 of those 7 days there wasn't even a Sun, so I doubt they're 24-hour days... ::)

Why do people insist on replacing God with evolution, or the other way around? Evolution is just another scientific theory, like relativity, etc. It should NOT be a topic of religious debate!

God and evolution can perfectly co-exist. "Genesis-as-allegory" is the way I see it. This allegory was absolutely essential, because there's no way you're gonna make 5th Century BC shepards believe that their ancestors were apes!

Why is there no science in the Bible? Because science constantly changes as our understanding of the world grows! The Bible was meant to last forever. So which science shall we use for it? Roman science, modern-day science or future science? Either way, you end up with a very narrow timeframe in which that science is "valid".

How do I tell which parts of the Bible are methaphors (or allegories, etc.) and which parts are facts? Simple: Everything than can be understood by people in every century is fact (e.g. Jesus went there and did that). But "sensitive" scientific subjects (like Creation) are not facts, because the actual facts cannot be understood by all the people throughout history!

Just imagine if the Bible used the scientific knowledge of the year 5000. It would look like complete jibberish to us.

[Edric O]

Imagine this scenario:

Moses: And so the Lord helped the Earth's crust solidify into tectonic plates. And the atmosphere had a composition similar to that found this day on Titan. Oh, you don't know what Titan is? Never mind... And the oceans had a wide variety of organic molecules dissolved in them. The Lord said "Let there be life" and the amino acids arranged themselves into DNA. By the way, did I tell you what DNA is?

Shepard: YOU'RE CRAZY! *starts throwing stones*

::) ::) ::)

[Edric O]

Oh, and I'm not making logical deductions on God, I'm making deductions on Biblical events. The events happened on Earth. So they're within our universe... None of them comes to mind right now (maybe I didn't even use them in this thread, in which case the argument about their validity is pointless).

[TMA_1]

digging yourself a hole edric.lol the 6 days are of restoration ifyou study the hebrew. Before that there was a race of angels that lived in the universe. Satan fell and destroyed the surface of our planet and probably many others. dont know but definately the earth. Then god restored what was lost. It says in isaiah that God doesnt create things formless and void. It says the earth was formless and void. The first verse of Genesis says god created the heavens and the earht. The universe as we know it. That is a seperate clause. Science hasent proven that the universe is billions of years old. they just look a t the strata of the earth's surface and the stars in the sky. Deducting that it must be much older than it is.

Its all based on faith to believe in christ. Evolution couldnt have happened based on the bible. We were created by god. You will see when the judgment day comes.

[Edric O]

Of course we were created by God. The question is "how?"

Evolution is just another way of creating the world, and I already explained in my previous posts why Genesis had to be an allegory and not actual fact. Everything in science only has a narrow timeframe in which it is considered valid, before a better theory comes along. The Bible is meant to last forever.

[gryphon]

Just some small notes, nothing big. don't take it like that. Just to show the duality of the situation.

The last thing however is verry cerious.

"for the first 3 of those 7 days there wasn't even a Sun, so I doubt they're 24-hour day"

I like that one. :)

"This allegory was absolutely essential, because there's no way you're gonna make 5th Century BC shepards believe that their ancestors were apes!"

It would sound easier to understand in my opinion than that we should thank our right to exists to something we can't see, or have no prove of it's existence.

And I think it far easier to believe the thinking of Plato and other theories like those from those day's then to believe in what the Bible mentioned.

"Of course we were created by God. The question is "how?""

No. The most important question is "why" ?

Why should any one create a race, o whole world for that matter with the only reason simply to die and be back with there creator. That makes no cense. Why should we live at all. Why should an entire univers be created, but the people in it don't live long enough to have the abilety to enjoy it.

Why should a whole univers be created that has no purpose what so ever. And if it does seem to have a purpose we don't know of, then arn't we mearly slaves to that purpose we serve ? Slaves placed here in life by that God that created us.

[ and you could addres the fact that we as humans are not the only important species. But I think that's false to assume. Not only did God grant us several favours. We are the only species in the whole univers who are capable, and had the duty to pass the word of God. Now that's not a small task to give away. And again, the fact that we have been granted several "pardons" so to speak. Times we should have been killed, murderd but have been given a second change. I fail to see how we can't be important when entire species are driven to extinction and we have been the only ones who have been saved several times by God.

Not even to mention that God supposibly gave his son for us. Not for other animals, creature or to save the univers. But for us. We are not "commen" in this univers for that matter. ]

[Acriku]

Acriku, I'm not saying God created the Earth billions and years ago in 7 days!!! I'm saying he created the Earth in bliions of years. You know, for the first 3 of those 7 days there wasn't even a Sun, so I doubt they're 24-hour days...

Could you explain the first parts more? It may be the wording that is confusing or just not explained enough to where I would get a sense of what you are saying, because to me you just said it took him billions of years to create the earth, whereas the Bible states that it took 7 days, and the "humans" that wrote the bible probably meant actual days (which is what the majority of christians believe, atleast to my knowledge).

Why do people insist on replacing God with evolution, or the other way around? Evolution is just another scientific theory, like relativity, etc. It should NOT be a topic of religious debate!

Why not? Evolution is basically a religion, as it takes faith to believe in it (more or less than religion) and doesn't have pure facts to prove it. Faith is what makes a religion what it is, but just because some people use their brains to find out how they were made doesn't mean it isn't able to be debated along with other religions.

God and evolution can perfectly co-exist. "Genesis-as-allegory" is the way I see it. This allegory was absolutely essential, because there's no way you're gonna make 5th Century BC shepards believe that their ancestors were apes!

First off, if evolution is real then it is proof that there is no "higher" entity causing everything to happen because it happened by nature. It's proof enough for a lot of people. And the whole religion idea was made to convince primitive (5th century bc as in your example) people to be good or suffer. Most of the people wanted an answer to "Is there anything after death?" and would also want the most simple one to accept - there is a powerful entity above us all and he made us. So what's your point?

Why is there no science in the Bible? Because science constantly changes as our understanding of the world grows! The Bible was meant to last forever. So which science shall we use for it? Roman science, modern-day science or future science? Either way, you end up with a very narrow timeframe in which that science is "valid".

I'm not arguing with what I'm about to say but simply asking - isn't the New Testament a change to the Bible? The Bible changes through every translation, so it couldn't last forever. Like the phonecall activity, it will always be distorted when it comes to the last person.

How do I tell which parts of the Bible are methaphors (or allegories, etc.) and which parts are facts? Simple: Everything than can be understood by people in every century is fact (e.g. Jesus went there and did that). But "sensitive" scientific subjects (like Creation) are not facts, because the actual facts cannot be understood by all the people throughout history!

First off, we don't even know FOR CERTAIN that Jesus ever existed. Only what the apostles wrote is hard proof for the existence of Jesus, and even then it's controversial. They could have made up the whole thing, and made up Jesus as well, and then eventually it got around to a lot of cultures and people made history books from it. Who knows for certain.

[nemafakei]

Very well...

The problem with religion is that, not only are dthere different religions, but different sects and denominations within each religion, and within each of these, there are different schools of thought over the particular stances of these groups.

Religion is extremely broad - and there is not clear consensus. Hence, what chance is there of any one being correct? Moreover, only one can be, as Edric stated above. Merely using your own personal judgement to find 'what's right for you' may be comforting - it may make you feel nice, but it's in no way a sensible

Edric... Last time we had this discussion, I remember you decided to extend the 'leap of faith' to admitting (for which I give you credit - most religious people I know would not) that to believe in God, you must ignore logic, replacing it with faith.

"Show me where it says in the Bible that the Earth is only a few thousand years old."

The names of certain lines of sons of Adam are given (very long lists, too) - these have a lifetime predefined in Genesis, so we can deduce that the lifetime of the earth from Gen 3 onwards is certainly not millions.

"The Earth is 5 billion years old, and it has been proven. And skelletons of dinosaurs are 65 billion years old "

I hope you meant millions in the second instance, else we'd have a bit of a problem...

[Edric O]

Gryphon, you obviously don't know how simple people thought in ancient times. They had heard numerous myths and legends, and firmly believed in magic. The concept of the world being created in 7 days was infinitely easier for them to understand than molecular science and advanced biology, don't you think?

Please pay more attention to the historical context. The teachings of Greek philosophers like Plato was only available to a select few! We're talking pre-Roman times!

The question is NOT "why". I have already established a few posts back that God is beyond our logic and our understanding, so we cannot possibly comprehend His motives.

Acriku:

Okay, let me put it this way:

6 Biblical days of Creation = the 15 billion years since the Big Bang

Genesis is an allegory. God has literary skills too...

Why not? Evolution is basically a religion.

EVOLUTION IS A SCIENTIFIC THEORY! >:( I can't believe I (a Christian) have to tell you (an atheist) that.

First off, if evolution is real then it is proof that there is no "higher" entity causing everything to happen because it happened by nature.

Wrong! Very wrong! Evolution and creation are NOT mutually exclusive. God has controled and guided evolution towards His goal. Why did He use evolution instead of just creating everything in an instant? Good question, but it's that "why" again... I already talked about that above.

The Bible changes through every translation, so it couldn't last forever.

You can always study the original texts. Of course there have been changes by translation (most Biblical errors are actually mistranslations) but we have the original texts! And they can last forever.

Only what the apostles wrote is hard proof for the existence of Jesus, and even then it's controversial. They could have made up the whole thing, and made up Jesus as well..

Yeah, one day a bunch of people got together and said: "Hey, let's invent a mythical Son of God figure, so we can all be martyrs and die in agony for Him!" ::)