Jurassic Park, reality?

[ordos45]

Okay Edric, seeing the whole where does free will fit in thing, could you help me out with a question. God knows all that will be, and all that will ever happen, yet we supposedly have free will. If everything is predestined by God, how can we have free will? And if free will doesn't exist because everything is predestined, then it is predestined for people to go to hell?

So if everything is predestined by God, then how can there be free will? Because if he knows what is going to happen anyhow, you are only fulfilling destiny, not of your own accord.

(Its just a question I can't answer and need a little help with, its been bugging me for a few days.)

[exatreide]

backs slowy away from the thread.....fearing the imminit relgion debate.....

but first.....

I agree with o45.

runs away gigliing like a school girl....

[Acriku]

My opinion that Edric might say is that there are endless amounts of different futures, God knows them all, and it is our free will to act on one of them.

[TMA_1]

damn acriku. your right. that exactly how god sees it. And god actually knows our free will and patterns his plans along our universe.

[Edric O]

God doesn't know the future in the same way as humans "know" something. He is not a prophet, He is an atemporal entity. For Him, the whole concept of time is completely and utterly different than for us. He sees all the possible futures, all the possible universes, at a quantum level. Things look very different from His perspective... to us, quantum physics might sound bizzare and counter-intuitive, but His point of view is probably even more strange than that. We simply cannot imagine how God thinks.

But basically, Acriku is right. God sees all the infinite future possibilities, and it is our decision to make one or another come true.

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[Edric O]

TMA, the stupidest thing a Christian could do is work against other Christians. Every denomination made mistakes in the past, not just the Catholics. That was how things were back then... bloody and cruel. But it's all IN THE PAST.

Edit: New font color

[gryphon]

When there are a specific amount of possible futures all possible and know to a possible God, there is a limited numer. And therefor no free will. You can't go besides the frame.

If you could, yuo don't know all options.

And if God should need small sacrefices, the 2de world war could be needed to prevent an even bigger event in a possible future. There should be now way to judge from our position because we do not have God's insight.

Adn besied that, there is now way to tell you'r religion, your ideas are right and those of others in other parts of the world arn't.

[Edric O]

Wrong gryphon, there is an infinite number of possible futures.

Besides, what you're saying is just like saying: "You can lie or tell the truth. Since you only have these two options, you have no free will!"

[gryphon]

Then you have the free will to choose if you lie or tell the truth.

And if the number of possible futures is limited, they can be known. But you don't have free will. It's impossible because the result can't change. It's already known.

If the number of possible futures is not limited, they can't all be known.

What jou just did. "Wrong gryphon" is a expression you can't make. You simply don't know that for shure. Nor do I know if my position is right. You do not know waht every culture now thinks, or has ever thought. And at this point I'm not entirely convinced that if you have no experiance at certain fields like that. You can't judge if they are wrong.

[Edric O]

What are you talking about with other cultures?

Anyway, stop thinking inside the box. God is omnipotent and omniscient. There is an infinity of possibilities and He knows them ALL. The laws of physics (or indeed even logic) do not apply to Him, because He is not bound by the rules of our universe (He can't be, because He created those rules in the first place!)

[Anathema]

God can see the future, but since the development of the world is only a series of reactions between energy and matter, there is only one possible future- unless God changes something, like sabotage JF Kenedys car so he doesn't get shot. Since he knows what the chain of reactions will lead to, and because he has the power to intervene, he determins the future.

[Edric O]

You are saying we live in a deterministic universe. I disagree.

The human mind does not follow those rules. We can choose to do something. Like I choose to type this. We have the power of choice. Only living beings have that power, and only humans can make a conscious choice.

[Anathema]

If you set your alarm clock to go off 7:00 in the morning, it will go off 7:00 in the morning- because the alarm clock is a device that is designed for a series of complicated reactions between matter and energy, that will eventually lead to...well, that the alarm goes off at 7:00.

The human brain is just a more complex device. The input is processed by the brain, and eventually result in output. Our conciousness is just a series of reactions that take place inside our brain.

The process of the alarm clock still lies within the reaches of our comprehension. But only God could predict the outcome of larger scale processes, like social changes and its effects.

[Edric O]

This is where we fundamentally disagree. I believe the human brain is MORE than just a complicated device. You can't predict what a human would do, no matter how much processing power you have. We are not just some complex machines. We are alive.

That is my opinion.

[gryphon]

What are you talking about with other cultures?

I couldn't have said it better myself ;)

There are other cultures you know, with other views, idea and ways of live. Who are you to judge they are all wrong and your idea of God and religion is right ?

Isn't that the same as discrimination of Black people, or the internetsencoring cuurently underway in Japan. Where they have blocked CNN and Google. Even more extreem, the German believe in te 2nd world war. There believe was right, any other culture wasn't.

"You can't predict what a human would do"

Partially I agree, but have a real good look at humanity. Humans are predicatable as hell. No real creativety, they are all doing and acting basically the same. In a way then, it's a generalization but still hope you get my point.

Just curious, can any one give an idea that IS and alsways has been and always shall be right ? No matter the condictions.

Just pops in mind, but how can you know what God does and why ? He doesn't apply to the laws of this univers according to you. So how are you able to understand him and really know what he / it is supposed to mean ?

[ again, I don't agree with you ass you know. But the above is not negative critasisme. Just curious why you have so different believes about that point. :) ]

[Terror]

Agreed. There is no proof that there IS a god and if so what god is the real god? or are all religions partly right? perhaps, perhaps not. I do not believe in a god but i'm not sure. Perhaps i'll burn in hell because of this but hey, we'll see :)

[Anathema]

I never said you could predict a human being! They are basicly devices, but beyond our comprehension. You can perhaps predict the reaction of a small number of atoms, but not of an entire brain. I just said the future is predestined, that the entire universe is basicly a contraption of action and reaction.

Terror, of course there is no real proof there is a God. That's why they call faith faith. I don't believe in God myself, though I wish there were a God like being.

[Edric O]

1. Let's not turn this into a religion debate.

2. In the case of God, proof (or lack thereof) is irrelevant. There is no proof for God because there CAN'T be any. Think about it: Even if God came to your home, how could you tell it's really Him, the Creator? You can't. Assuming God exists, there is no way to prove it.

Gryphon, all I meant was that I didn't understand your comment about the other cultures. I am very much aware of their beliefs and values. I HAVE to judge them or live my life in indecision! Hey, who are you to judge the Nazis, right? ::)

So you're asking why I think other religions are wrong? It's simple:

- Any God or godlike entity would obviously make sure His true religion became one of the major world religions, unless He only intends it for His "chosen ones", in which case I'm left out anyway.

- Out of the major world religions, Christianity is closest to my heart. There are also historical reasons why I think Christianity is most likely to be true, but they're too long to list here.

[Edric O]

Furthermore, Gryphon, let me say how sick and tired I am of political correctness. It's my right to think anything I bloody want! I have analyzed all major cultures and religions and I know what I'm talking about. I have the right to an opinion

[Anathema]

Nobody has the right to judge other cultures. About the nazi thing, that's different, since the entire world was it's victim, especially the jews, so we have the right to judge THEM.

But for some indean tribe in south America, we don't have anything to do with them and so we cannot judge them. To have an opinion on a culture is one thing, but if you start saying: "They are scum" or "Their religion is crap" you're out of line.

[gryphon]

Don't get me wrong. I know you have the right to an opinion. And respect it [ I hope, agani it isn't negatieve comment ]. But when traveling around the world for a couple of years now I still can't find any "world religion" nor any that is the biggest. Poeple around the world are all different, with some comment behaviour paterns but still different.

It's not about politics nor did I bring just politics up.

Think of it, when a God like entity can envorce his own believe to the world. . .where is our will to choose for him ?

I respect your opinion, but think that when you take an absolute statement as "things are just roght or wrong and God is allknowing" you ceriously enclose my opnion and right to choose.

[Anathema]

Gryphon I agree with the free will thing. Most religions basicly say: "Worship our God, or go to hell!".

So much for free will...

[Edric O]

Well, you have the free will to worship God or not... Yes or no. Looks like free will to me!

Of course, if you're an atheist, you can either go to one hell or another (depending on which religion is correct) or dissapear into oblivion (if atheism is correct). Not much of a choice...

Don't get me wrong, Gryphon, I like cultural diversity. I have friends from many different cultures and religions. I just want my own culture and religion to be respected as much as all the others. (it seems in the West the common wisdom is "all other cultures are better than ours")

The reason why you can't find any common ground, any "world religion" or something similar is because God does not enforce his own belief on the world...

Things are not just right or wrong. There are many shades of gray. But my point was that they do not change.

[gryphon]

"Any God or godlike entity would obviously make sure His true religion became one of the major world religions"

Free will to you, don't think so. He inforces it as the major one. We have know choice because he is more "powerfull"

This is also your point on why other religions are wrong.

That's where I fail to see your point.

:)

[Edric O]

God makes sure His religion is a major world religion, but not by enforcing it. He does it by providing the right historical context for that religion to develop.

Most religions are mutually-exclusive. They can't all be right, can they?

:)

So obviously you need to choose just one, or none. I chose Christianity.