Creating a board game based on RTS games.

[X3M]

Discussed the calculations manual with my cousin yesterday. This forced me to review.

 

If the speed modifiers are done right. The range modifiers have to be taken into account.

 

But I discovered that the range modifiers for weapons are not right.

 

Normally a weapon of 100, costs 100 at range 4.

2 weapons of 100, costs 200 at range 4.

1 weapon vs ground and 1 weapon vs air, both range 4, still costs 200.

 

But if you have to choose 1 or the other. In other words, the weapon is 1 projectile that has to choose a target. By the rules of the speed modifiers, it would cost 150. I tested other ranges as well. And I was happy about the results.

However, higher ranges seemed to be a little more expensive then expected, compared to the lower ranges.

 

This was something that I calculated some years ago. The range gets the same modifiers then the speeds. Back then, I didn't do infinity checks.

 

And now I did. Then the 2 weapons of 100 cost the same then the "choice of dimension" weapon. Which is only half effective. So you have great imbalance above a certain range. This already might be at range 4, where the choice of dimension weapon is 50% more expensive then a single dimension weapon.

 

I am sure the speed modifiers work correctly. After all, you can move and hide somewhere, where other units can't reach.

Luckily this range problem, does not influence the current first box. All those units are basic or simple.

 

2 none basics:

Mines and minesweepers, but they have only 1 dimension weapons.

 

Balancing games? Do infinity checks besides of 0 checks.

 

So, what now?

 

---

 

This is what should be balanced:

 

1 weapon against ground, is worth 1

1 weapon against air, is worth 1

2 weapons that hits ground and air at the same time, is worth 2

1 weapon that hits ground or air, is worth .....?

 

---

 

Edit:

I have had things way to complicated.

- First I modified Range and Speed depending on the characteristics of the unit. Propulsion influences damage as well in costs.

- Then I scraped this and turned it into modifiers of the default statistics. So propulsion still influenced damage. But the factors where easier.

- Once again scraped it. Now I have this main factor separated in factors for Armour, and factors for Damage. They should become equal now in effects. And no matter how much range you have, Armour will always have the same factor for a certain type of unit.

 

Air will cost twice as much for armour. Hoovers are the same. Yet Hoovers have influence of mountains and forests for movement. Air will only have this with large quantities of a high land scape. That's right, "super mountains". But they are very rare. Any suggestions?

[X3M]

Short one:

 

- Simplifying balance of movement through dimensions.

- Has simplified weapon balance and costs.

- Has complicated experience costs for Armour and Speed. But that one was do-able.

- Has allowed an addition of X weapons. These can actually go through closed environments without fail. And are now balanced.

- Has showed me the true factor for "choice of dimension" weapons. The factor is square root of 2. 1,5 and 1,333 are both equally away from this factor. I have chosen 1,333 since with 4 dimensions, you get a "perfect" balance between "choice" weapons and "juggernaut" weapons.

 

Well, back to the manuals.

- Added a Mine Placements Centre. Not so sure about the name though :D. Perhaps Mine Deployment Centre?

- Discussed the Grenadier and usefulness of all other units compared to the Jeeps. This discussion starts every time when players take a look at the speed and range. Once again, get the low ranged units close. Low range means they are cheaper. Of course the Jeeps can outrun. But that is all they can do ;). And once trapped, they are done for.

 

Now I wonder:

- Risk has 40 infantry, 12 horses, 8 cannons. For each of the 6 players, that is a total of 360 pieces.

- My game has 636 units for each of the 3 players. This includes the squad cards.

 

Structures, XP, Permanents, Regions, Player cards, reserve units and Damage counters not counted.

That is 1908 pieces!!! already. But only for the multi-player maps you need this amount. Lets forget about miniatures :D

Each card with a thickness of maximum 1 mm. This is already 2 meters of cardboard. Lets say that the end result is 2,5 meters high. With a 2 x 3 cm size. It will be 1500 cm³ or 1,5 dm³. Total weight of the first box will be about 1 kg?

 

Do-able?

[X3M]

Very short one:

 

- I am stuck....

on the fact that 1 player has a little over 700 pieces in the first box. And I wanted to make a box for 3 players. 2200 pieces!

Removing this and allowing players to have a small armies will reduce the game in all aspects.

Not gona name the aspects since it would be a tldr post again.

 

Help?

 

Edit:

There are games out there with over 6,000 pieces. But they are with "5" add-ons included. So 1,000 per box.

I made a little calculation on my future progress. I will probably have over 55,000 with those "24" add-ons. :D.

23 kg. :D

[X3M]

Over 10.000 views. I feel honoured. But who is watching? No one really replies here :D.

 

I still wanted to discus with my co-worker the fact about the 700 pieces a player. It bothers me really a lot.

If you think about it, a much played game like risk has only 60 each player. But it has a fixed board as well.

I have it all dynamic. The board is always random. And each piece can have damage, experience, permanents (personal upgrades) and if it has done something or not.

 

Anyway, here goes "the downfall" of the game.

I am going to give a list of things that might as well be removed if I try to reduce pieces. Some sort of chain reaction occurs.

Neglecting the fact that I have also thought of missions with only 20 - 50 pieces per player.

Normally you would be having about 5 to 30 units per region, in a pile. I already thought of reducing this by "squads" of the cheapest.

 

The following indicates utter failure:

At least, that is how I feel.

 

Action:

1 - To reduce pieces, perhaps unit counters? It would be as if 1 unit is actually a squad. And some counters like, 1,1,1,5 would mean, 8 pieces. This can go on to about 120 tops.

Consequences:

A - Tracking damage becomes hard, or even impossible.

Consequences:

a - The damage can only be on the group. If there is enough, a counter is removed. But this is still to do.

O wait, this means no splitting up forces. Perhaps singling out those who will receive damage? But then I am back to where I started.

b - Removing damage, might as well remove the health system then. It would be 6 is a hit, 1 to 5 are misses. Then permanents regarding damage and health become obsolete.

XP used to give only health AND damage, now it's just range and speed.

B - Tracking experience becomes hard, or even impossible.

Consequences:

a - Impossible to do on a group. All permanents become obsolete as well.

b - Perhaps singling out those who will receive permanents? But then I am back to where I started.

C - Tracking permanents (personal upgrades) becomes impossible.

Consequences:

a - Singling out is necessary. Thus I am back to where I started.

D - Tracking actions becomes hard, or even impossible.

Consequences:

a - No split actions or splitting forces. Normally 1 part of a region doesn't fight back because it wants to fire on another region. This gives great tactics.

E - Some units don't have need for this, unless more are allowed in 1 region. But this makes the game chaotic.

Consequences:

a - There are units worth 3600 each. So only 1 would be there. So then it is an overused action. Nevertheless, this is only some times.

b - Allowing more units (into infinite) makes range and speed obsolete. If you are limited in numbers. Then range and speed become useful aspects of the entire game. They however might merge into 1. But then we have Axis and Allies type of game.

Action:

2 - To reduce pieces, perhaps removing unit types?

Might as well burn the game. I am already at an acceptable lowest kind of game. If I where only to start with infantry. That would be stupid. It is already a build up in the "single" player missions that you train with Infantry first.

Action:

3 - To reduce pieces, perhaps removing range and speed? Only allowing damage and armour?

A - No need for a big board.

B - No need for range and speed permanents.

C - No need for hexagons.

D - No need for turns.

Well, not even going to go further into this list.

 

As you can see, I have given the spoiler a try.

Further more, I await my co-worker. He can be brilliant with giving solutions.

I wonder if anyone on this forum has an opinion.

[X3M]

Updates? Yes:

Placed a lot of spoilers.

 

I still wanted to discus with my co-worker the fact about the 700 pieces a player. It bothers me really a lot.

If you think about it, a much played game like risk has only 60 each player. But it has a fixed board as well.

I have it all dynamic. The board is always random. And each piece can have damage, experience, permanents (personal upgrades) and if it has done something or not.

 

I did have some discussion. But it didn't last. 1 Main point is, I have to remove all the "squad" cards. They have no real function after round 1. Only the "squad" cards for the walls can remain. But this changes as soon as a player uses that region. Might as well remove that. The 12 centimetre high stack of wooden fences will be a "funny" situation, notching more. Players are limited to 18 regions each, this includes the necessary structures. Result would be, only about 210 cards on the board.

 

Did some simulation tests. The kind of "what if?" All tests had the goal: playability.

Summary:

I kept a watchful eye on units, damage counters, experience counters and permanents.

Speed and Range Permanents where not assigned since those are only really useful after destroying a region.

The unit cards themselves can be handled fast. With a battle board where players put there armies on, things go faster and easier. All cards, also the damage counters, XP and permanents have the same size than the units cards.

If an unit has done something, you simply turn it 90 degree's including all it's extra's. This will remain when put back on the board until the next round.

 

Results of the 5 tests are:

- The small and plenty versus the small and plenty;

Numerous but weak. They die fast enough to keep the damage counters to a minimum. This however means that each round 1 unit still receives some damage counters. And retreats to another line for the next round. The experience has to be planned before hand. This means that if there is only 1 line, XP units will be targeted first anyway. If you suspect that about 6 units will receive XP, they have to be in a supportive line.

 

Each player can throw dice, unit by unit. Of course they can agree on assigning XP later on, on those units that didn't die or received damage. Then it is range by range. And players can divide their optimal damage. This makes the game more fun too.

 

Well, there is another tactical advance for ranged units now. Not much, but still.

Experience can be spend fast anyway.

The permanents will be low for each, but this means plenty in mid-game. The last one will be having a lot. Best choice is Health permanents for meat function. Maybe 1 or 2 times a Damage permanent in the mid-game. But then on a group. If each unit has a separate amount of Damage permanents, then you need to re-roll for each unit.

 

Damage counters, low but cumulative.

Experience counters, low.

Permanents, low, then chaotic, eventually cumulative for the last man standing. Both damage and health get a turn. But during mid-game, health will have the upper hand.

- The small and plenty versus the big and few, damage on target;

Well, the same can be said for the small and plenty like in the previous example.

 

The big and few, and both sides on target. Results in a lot of damage counters on the armoured units. Experience will be divided, but not really spend until the fight is almost over (6 rounds have passed). Only in the end, there might be some noticeable permanents around. Most are spend on health for saving the unit while the numerous clearly choose damage now. This is nice, since there is a change of tactic now.

 

Small and plenty:

Damage counters, low but cumulative.

Experience counters, low.

Permanents, low, then chaotic, eventually cumulative for the last man standing. Mostly health, but the very high damages will have some as well. Even though it is expensive.

 

Big and few:

Damage counters, high and cumulative.

Experience counters, eventually high. But then a fall.

Permanents, non existent until, eventually high for the last man standing. Depending on the targets, anti infantry, damage will be useful here.

- The small and plenty versus the big and few, damage is not on target;

Basic the same as on target.

With 1 major difference. If the small and numerous are a bit lucky. They too receive a lot of damage counters. The big and few will have even more.

 

Experience wont be piling up until dead occur. But in the last round, it might be over in an instant. No need for permanents then. During mid-game, I had once a stack size of 21 cm. Average was 12 cm. But these kind of fights would mostly be avoided. Unless there is notching else to do. However, in some missions. You really will be getting these, but you will be using event cards as well.

 

Small and plenty:

Damage counters, high and cumulative.

Experience counters, low.

Permanents, low till the end. Mostly health.

 

Big and few:

Damage counters, very high and cumulative.

Experience counters, might be medium, but mostly cannot be spend due to high XP costs.

Permanents, non existent until the end. Unless 1 unit got lucky. Mostly health.

- The big and few versus the big and few, on target;

It goes the same as the small and plenty. But even though it can go fast in the first round. It will take a lot of rounds for the last one. The random factor actually has more influence on numerous, while it is closer to the average. This surprised me. But it is understandable. Some maths behind it:

A little survivor counts 100% if it takes cover. And there is a big army for covering. A big unit however, doesn't have much buddies to hide behind, and survival doesn't really give a cumulative effect. Where 1 on 36 means a usefulness for 36, a 1 on 6 is only 1/6th in effect. This is a difference in the army is 666 strong or 21 strong. The very next would survivor would have 630 or 15. This is a difference of 95% or 71%. And that is a lot. If you want to know more about army effects during combat, pleas PM me.

Damage counters, low but cumulative. Eventually medium.

Experience counters, low, eventually medium. And well spend.

Permanents, low, eventually cumulative for the last man standing. They are spend on damage and health.

- The big and few versus the big and few, is not on target;

Ok, this would be like an APC versus APC combat. It takes very very long, And then, some more time.And the bigger they are, the longer it takes. In the first box, Big units will be needing 3 to 5 times more round to finish each other of then the small units. So instead of a healthy 6 rounds, or 12 with filled regions. We are talking bout 18-30 rounds, or 36-60 rounds with filled regions. Each round might take about 5 minutes. So, the worst possible case takes 300 minutes or 5 hours to be played out.

 

Those 60 minutes for a healthy filled region is based on 6 regions versus 6 regions. Depending on numbers of units and player skill of course.

 

Anyway:

Damage counters, low but cumulative. Eventually ridiculous high. It would not surprise me if the counters of 9 are used before those of 25.

Experience counters, Non existent until the last rounds.

Permanents, low, eventually cumulative for the last man standing. Most are spend on health.

 

And here is the Unit Statistics Card, that will be included in the first box:

This is a complete one for all the players. Missions are based on these units. Please tell me what you think about it.

 

Ow, almost forgot something. A map. Perhaps some might recognise this map from a previous post. Long, long ago ^^. Quality is very low due to size. The useful version is almost 20 mB. Further more, this map has a bit to much in the lowest and highest regions, those regions need to be deleted or halved. The Dungeongrapher does not allow this, nor will future maps have this:

 

 

 

[X3M]

This project is getting close to a close.

 

I finally had a good discussion with my co-worker:

 

- I showed him the first missions, and the last missions. He considered it a good build up. However, the build up is needed a lot.

 

- I also showed him the 2 files that I posted in the previous post. Telling him, this is the maximum that players will use. That includes a maximum of 18 regions. This invokes more tactics and planning. He thinks that, that part of the game will be to hard for players.

 

- He finds the addition of a combat field a good choice, this helps players planning and doing the fight. However, I need to work on the layout a bit more. It needs sufficient lines, first game could use 9 lines each player. There is no need for a field for units that don't fight, they simply wont get tapped (magic style). Once used, the units are placed back on the map, tapped. If the player colour is placed on top, this one can be tapped instead.

 

- 1 region stack will be having an average of about 6 cm hight in cards, including damage, experience and permanents. With a 2 by 3 cm card size, this is do-able. However, he suggests to make the cards a bit larger. The hexagon regions themselves have sides 6 (height 10). With this, 3 players could fit easily in 1 region. For regions in a slope, I indeed need larger cards, or they fall over. But then, 3 players that are all 3 tapped, wont fit any more. Unless the tapping is less then 90 degrees. No slopes, no larger cards. But walk paths to higher regions will get triangles for the corners. Height difference of 1 cm would be enough. So, 1 mm thick region cards are going to be placed on 10 mm thick region fillers. They can be stacked.

 

- He thinks that 3 players is too much for the learning missions. Because you will be needing all 3 players to be learning. 2 would be optimal. And, with 3 players, when 1 dies, the game is mostly finished for the other 2. They won't finish since 1 can't play along any more. A lot of blabla:

However, I will simply keep the 3 player missions separate. You wont be learning new things in the 3 players missions. This means, first I complete the designs for 2 player missions. Then I think of some 3 player missions that mirror the 2 player missions. Further more, I can simply copy some 2 player missions, but then add something for the third player to be the third force in that missions.

Example 1: the third player has an infinite amount of units or is just an immortal. Just there to be annoying.

Example 2: the third player actually joins forces with 1 of the other players.

 

I could add more players as well now. But only for specific tasks. And keeping a maximum on 2 teams helps a lot too.

 

- 1 set of units instead of 3?

(or 2 if the game is for 2)? This needs new rules to be added. Then with a bit of luck, players could monopolize units. However in my opinion, this makes the game less fun. The unit limitation is already by the regions that you control.

 

- Had another idea for designing production structures.

I might be getting lower armour, but more durability for structures. This means that a construction yard might be getting a simple armour of 9. But then more health against high weaponry, way more health. As if it is a pile of sand bags. This reminds me of C&C where low weapons from rifle infantry and grenadiers are excellent construction yard killers. While tanks did almost notching. The maths for me are simple here, if you compare. 36 armour has 216 health, 9 armour has 54 health. But a structure with 9 armour and costs of that of a 36 armour unit, would get 108 health now. The results are simple, all the weapons, 36 damage or higher in this case need twice as much time. But the on target weapon or lower in damage need only half the time. In between the 2, you have a shift. Infantry has just become even more useful.

 

- By above, I need to review the structures. However, they now can receive faster repairs as well ^^.

[X3M]

Had another discussion with my co-worker

He finds the game way to complicated. Understandable, but way to complicated. To complicated? YES.

First let's compare chess with my board game. Then you will understand with why to complicated.

 

A little example of chess:

There are 6 pieces to be learned:

You learn how to use the pawn

You learn how to use the castle

You learn how to use the knight

You learn how to use the bishop

You learn how to use the queen

You learn how to use the king

Some noticeable ending combinations:

There is 1 special rule regarding the king and 1 of the castles

2 castles

a castle with the queen

an incoming pawn with a guarding castle or queen

Well, I am not a chess player since long, long time ago. But I remember the complicated protecting system where with almost all pieces on the board, the king went down anyway.

 

A "little" example of my board game, the example has noticeable differences that influence tactics and strategy:

Learning units:

There are X armour types, but it varies between low, medium and high, so lets say 3 types as example. To be learned when to use them.

There are corresponding X damage types, lets say 3 types again as example. To be learned when to use them.

There are X speed types, lets say, 0, slow, moderate and fast, so 4 types. To be learned, because influenced by the map.

There are X range types, lets say, 0, short, moderate and long, so 4 types. To be learned, because influenced by the map.

3x3x4x4 will already give 144 different kind of units. Each there own purpose.

There are combinations of 2, 3, 4 etc of them. Sometimes 2 weak types defeat 2 strong types, simply by "micro management". In other words, who serves meat and who serves support?

I almost forgot, there are different damage types regarding reaching a certain terrain or dimension.

There are different armour/speed types regarding reaching a certain terrain or dimension.

There are special types of damage that can hurt only 1 type.

Learning the board:

There are different terrains, normal, water, mountain. (2-D)

These terrains can be combined by 2, 3 or all 4. This also greatly influences tactics and strategy.

There are different dimensions, ground, air, space, and sub (3-D)

The other 3 besides of the ground, are a bit easier in design. But this also gives some sort of 3-D movement.

Learning which regions block projectiles

Learning which regions block units

Learning the cards:

I thought of over 40 Event Cards

Some can be combined to increase effects linear

Some can be combined to increase effects exponential

Some neutralise each other, so not to combine

Some are good on half of your army, while the other half of your army might become worse, so caution is required

Some can be used on yourself and your enemy, depending on the situation

Some can be used on your allies as well, depending on the situation

Learning experience and permanents, a total of 5:

To increase health, damage, range, speed, multipliers. Certain rules are needed to know.

Damage in particular needs attention with this. Due to constant effects in combat

Event cards might become more useful in some cases, less in others. Especially with the multipliers

Learning resource management, a total of 7:

Each their own strong points and weaknesses.

Also dependable on the units that are used.

Also dependable on bonus experience or other event cards.

Not to mention production rules, use of actions, first player in each round, etc.

 

The path to learn this game, you don't simply need to know basics like how to use the 6 pieces in chess. And perhaps some "special" rules. You need to learn a lot over time.

Even though I planned "single" player missions. To learn each aspect of this game and learn to combine the aspects. Well, I don't see it happening with other players. Not even if I start out simple like what I showed to my co-worker. 16 pieces a player versus 700 pieces a player. max map size 100 versus 54. And that's only the first box. I had it simply planned to have 25 boxes total. Story line, and progress in the rules etc. Chaos, chaos, chaos.

 

There is only an end conclusion left:

The game:

The intended game only works for me. I know all the rules. But god forbid, others might learn completely.

Some parts of the game really are only needed for 2 players. So I wont be needing them.

No one in the neighbourhood to test it with anyway. My co-worker has refused now that it looks and feels to complicated.

A lot of printouts needed. While I can play the game in my mind. No need to continue on graphics. For my feelings, the board game was completed at a certain point. But not for general publishing.

 

My learnings:

Based on RTS, I learned a lot for balancing a real RTS.

I learned a lot of designing a "war" board game. ---> Not suited for me.

I learned myself new math for determine balances (50.000 simulations in 1 second ftw).

I learned specific math on strategy. I learned specific math on tactics. And yes, there is a clear difference. And yes, you need both ways of calculating if you want to balance RTS.

With a few modifications, most of the formulas work for RTS as well. Some I discovered by thinking in the board game universe, if I never did this project, I probably never would had known. Others where already derived by analysing existing RTS.

 

This project:

Ends

 

Some sort of afterword; the help that I got:

Not naming them, since they want to remain anonymous on the internet.

- Some thought I did great. Some of them never said how or why. But some others did. Anyway, thanks for the support. You know that I am talking about you. I roughly estimate this on 20 people.

- 1 person, that held me back at certain points, which forced me to go board game instead of a MMO-text based. He showed me that wanting to much, kills a project. I learned from that.

But he did not show me that knowing to much, also can kill a project. I was the only one, cheers to that :D. If I realised back then, I never started.

- 1 person, that had the idea of Event Cards, which immediately increased fun potential and game flow. If this did not happen, then the project was closed before even mentioning it on this forum.

- 4 people that had good interest. Sorry for bothering you by my intensive blabbering :D. 2 Are from this forum. 2 others are from my private life.

- 1 person in particular, he had really good discussions with me, my co-worker. The best help I could get. Since he knows it all. If someone like him, draws back. That says enough.

 

Future?

- Perhaps if I can get my hands on miniatures and terrain. For some story telling based on my board game rules :D.

- I will not reduce tactics and strategy by scrapping parts. Or I scrap every thing, and reduce the game to a specialized RISK type of game. But then I want it programmed again.

- RTS balancing? why the !@#$ is that SC2 editor so complicated?

- Specific situation testing, I will keep it now to myself.

[Davidu]

You know you could program that into a small Flash game :) and no one would be able to cheat :D

[X3M]

I can't program. I don't have the time to learn. I have a busy life: work and private.

However on work: I practically created this game in my head. Only to type some rules back home. And test stuff on paper or in excel.

 

And someone already tried out programming for me.

Turns out, he didn't understand the rules.

Let alone that players would understand what to do.

 

Maybe, I recreate the battle simulation for WargameX (old text based game) again in excel. I got some new experience now, and easier ways to calculate. But that would also be for me personal. My cousin doesn't want to program that game any more. He wanted to much anyway.

[Davidu]

Well, you don't have to do it now :) It's not like I have too much free time for my mod either. Just small steps ;)

[X3M]

At least you know what you are doing. I still have to start at 0.

And perhaps programming is your field. Not mine, I am an analyst.

I don't even know where to start. A line has 2 starting points. A circle has infinite starting points. My game resembles a moving sphere through time and space.

 

If someone has a RTS. I simply could say, here are the numbers you need. And add 1, 2 or 3 units for the balance. Period :D

But PM me if you are interested in how the board game works. I will try to explain 1 part at a time. Perhaps you understand the difficulty.

Or you are indeed the first to understand the mechanics. (That would be a wonder).

[X3M]

I thought you'd given up, every one did that.

 

Shall I email you the manuals? In that case, I need to extract the right event cards for the missions. I did not do that yet.

But the main manual, except what the box had to contain. I can email that if you want.

And the list of units is already present. You can take that one to start with.

I hope it is possible for you to make some sort of experience spending system.

There wont be any need for a limit on actions, as long as every unit only does 1 thing each round.

 

It wont be dune based, in the version that i nearly finished.

It will be a, army got on another planet by german experiments during WW2.

They will evolve there. Each new addon to the game is a next generation with previous still in use. Ok with that?

[Davidu]

I did indeed do some programming in high-school... but that was 9 years ago. Damn I'm old   Aaaand being an architect helps with design, 3d modeling and texturing. Though I've discovered the whole game industry is a very different matter from what I'm used to. Those are the "+". The minuses are the language for M&B source code is an invented one specially for that game based on Python (which I have no idea how to use), low-poly modelling is a real headache, texturing is hell if you ask me because I have no idea how to UVW unwrap a surface, and most of the game-related additional programs are made by fans... therefore full of bugs.

 

The idea would be, once you finish your design, to simplify the structure. Do a bit of clean-up. Try to describe the behavior of a unit (let's say) by what it does when it encounters a problem. For a programmer to put it in code he needs if clauses and repetitive functions. 

 

Let's say a unit will loose speed if hit. If my C++ syntax is still correct the code for that would e something like:

 

while ( health != 0 ) speed = health; // means that at full health the unit will have full speed and the speed is directly proportional to the health

 

If you want to add some adrenaline boost:

 

while ( health != 0 ) if ( health < 25 ) speed = 50;

                                                         else speed = health;

 

Meaning speed is proportional to health as long as health is above 25. under 25 adrenaline boosts in and jumps the speed to 50.

 

Obviously you don't have to know any programming language. But as long as you can disassemble your game in some basic conditions/clauses it will be easier for someone to put it in code. 

 

Send me a pm with a download link for the manual, I'd like to look at it. Your posts here are too long for me to be able to focus, sorry  :( And yes, I know how it is with work, personal life, hobbies... I got my parents coming up next week for a month so no more work on the mod in May, unless some magic happens and I get free time at work, and that would only be some small map icons or something. And after that I'll (hopefully) start teaching english part time to fill up the 20% salary cut that came up with the Chinese New Year. Gonna be a rough summer.

[X3M]

Busy now on cleaning up the main manual.

But I am not permitted to upload this word file on this forum.

 

With the statistics card posted before, you also know the units.

But here it is once more:

 

Perhaps it is better to get a version with only the units, before we add structures?

Also, leaving out defences, unless both players get some beforehand, on the map.

Most starting/learning missions contain only units anyway. But beginning with missions is to hard too.

 

So, create a 1v1 game? Where you buy your units before hand and start in 1 or more locations. Then you fight with the other player. If there is income, then a starting location for new units could take place.

 

I remembered again why it was 6 actions per round. It is to prevent slacking and abusing. And limiting players movement through choke points. So I will let that one in.

 

Manuals:

I indicated red stuff, for not worth reading. And green stuff for some sort of correction.

Lets see, how to give the stuff.

 

Edit 25-04-2013:

Only one of you has received the documents. Perhaps I should not include the unit statistics for the other one?

 

Edit 02-02-2014:

Wow, that USC is very outdated. That is the imbalanced version :D

Edited February 2, 2014 by X3M

[X3M]

My cousin wants to take a look at it again. But this time not that mmo like 10 and 5 years ago, but the board game itself.

 

If players are guided, and the cards are electronic. There is less hassle.

But then again, I need to be very strict. If something is different. The game will be unbalanced.

He has a lot of experience with hexagon grids now. That should be a good thing.

[Davidu]

Nice :D I'm waiting for a nice quiet day to look on your files. Sad part is that's probably not very soon :(

[X3M]

No worries,

 

But I guess the manuals are still confusing.

The "single" player missions is what teaches you the real game. I have them on paper, but not in the computer.

Main problem is the maps that are needed. Might make some, end of next week, but they are also mainly for my cousin to program.

 

That is, if he accepts my proposals.

The luck with my cousin is; I can show him directly how the game works. Bit by bit.

 

Chances are high that my work is going to change. I will have more responsibility but less time. Where previous work allowed me to walk around like a zombie (read, living in 2 worlds). My new work requires me to pay attention. From that moment on, I will only be able to spend time in the weekends.

 

 

The display of a hexagon grid on the screen is easy. But calculating with the path of projectiles needs math. This seems to be hard according to someone. I have it explained in the manual. But if you don't understand, please ask me. 

 

I guess, the hardest part is the corners of the hexagons, touching the path of the projectiles.

There are several ways to do this, there must be a good one for programmers. Right?

 

[X3M]

I actually got questions about the statistics card that I posted up here. Although the questions came from my cousin. I decided to post them here. I consider them valid questions.

 

Q - Why is it possible to spend XP on walls and mines? Walls can't kill and mines are gone after exploding.

A - Well, the game contains cards with bonus XP. These cards can also be spend on the walls and mines beforehand. See it as if the card is an upgrade.

The 1200 XP card for example fits neatly on the Wooden Fence. This Wooden Fence only requires 30 XP for each extra Health in the first 6 upgrades. Then of course it increases in level too. The XP you could spend is:

30+30+30+30+30+30+60+60+60+60+60+60+90+90+90+90+90+90+120 = 1200. The Wooden Fence is upgraded with 19 extra health. So a total of 25 health.

This does not sound logical at first, since building 3 extra Wooden Fences would only require costs 90. But the XP can be spend if you have no money. This also can save units, or make a mine deadlier. If the card can divide XP amongst several units. You can get yourself more health on Wooden Fences. 40 extra health. Which can postpone unit death by at least 1 round.

 

Q - Why would I build Sand Bags?

A - If you are dealing with anti infantry and anti tank weapons.

Anti infantry are worse against Sand Bags by a factor 3 in costs and 3 in effectiveness, a total of 9.

And you can have 1,67 times more sand bags than concrete walls. Of course that difference is also to be taken twice since the tank weapon costs is also 1,67 times. A total factor of 2,89.

 

Q - Why are there so much differences in the XP that can be spend on upgrades?

A - Just so happens, you also pay for your statistics. But the XP has been divided since certain statistics are more useful than others in certain maps or on certain units. This increases fun.

 

Q - Can you do the same, but then with 2 or more different resources?

A - Rather not, different resources actually make a game imbalanced between unit classes. I tested that over and over. Spending XP is a different story though. Since you actually have once again 1 type of resource. You simply buy an upgrade instead.

 

Q - If a map has no resources, why would I want Workers or other resource gatherers?

A - Mobile walls. Even though, a worker is 75% costs than that of a Rifle Infantry. Nah, you are right, they are rather useless here. Especially the Jeeps version, which costs the same as the cheapest other Jeeps. Only the Worker and the Cargo Truck might be somewhat useful.

With a full region, 4 Workers and 33 Rifle Infantry actually beat 36 Rifle Infantry. And that one is very close. Only that situation is known. So, they are not really worth it in the long run.

 

Q - I don't get it. How do you know that 4 Workers with 33 Rifle Infantry actually beat 36 Rifle Infantry?

A - You let your Workers die first. By simply subtracting the damage or units on both sides, you can see the difference very quickly.

4/33 versus 36. Playing 1 round. Where 4/33 becomes 0/31 and 36 becomes 30,5.

So after 1 round you have 31 versus 30,5. The left side will obviously win in the long run.

 

Q - So 8/30 versus 36? Becomes 2/30 versus 31. Now what?

A - That one requires one more step to be certain.

5 more death on the left side plus a little bit of damage. 2/30 becomes 0/26,83. While the right side becomes 26.

Once again, the left side has a bit of an upper hand. 26,83 versus 26.

 

Q - Ok, let me do the next one?

12/27 versus 36.

6/27 versus 31,5. (A - Remember, that half one gets saved, so 6/27 versus 31 and 3 health)

4 health / 27 versus 26 and 3 and 3 health

0/23 versus 21 and 3 and 3 and 3 health

A - Now you got the hang of it. But this one is tricky. The right side still does more damage then the left side. You need to keep calculating to know the end.

 

Part 2:

Q - So, did you just make those XP numbers up?

A - No, they are based on the unit statistics. And are calculated with some formula's.

 

Q - 6750 XP needed for the Rocket Launcher, Speed 2 becomes 3? Why would anyone do that?

A - How much units are there that have Speed 2? You can start outrunning units, while you still have your Range of 8 too. If an unit has the most of Range and Speed in a game, that unit is invincible in open maps.

Q - Yes, but the Rocket Launcher needs to kill 12 other tanks. That takes 36 rounds.

A - If you have 3 of them working together. The last one will get the kill. That would be about 600 XP every round. More if you first train that Rocket Launcher in damage as well.

 

Q - Why damage?

A - The Rocket Launcher shoots 2 projectiles. As soon as it had 3 upgrades on damage. It will be as if it shoots 3 projectiles. And the killing speed for that Rocket Launcher goes from 3 to only 2 rounds. When you kill faster, you gain faster XP. That's why the Health and Damage upgrades are cheaper in XP. The Speed and Range only serve as an exponential effect. I made this choice because maps are limited. Players rather increase durability of units than units that hop around.

 

Q - So if I get it straight. It is better to train 1 unit then dividing the XP?

A - Yes, to a certain level. Then it would be better to give that unit a little hero friend.

Q - What is the most useless unit in this list?

A - Uhmmm, I don't know. For a full game they all are useful.

If you remove resource management, those are rather useless.

If you remove the need for a base. Then the defences are rather useless too. This includes the 3 mine sweepers.

Then only 12 units remain. And they are useful or useless depending on the map.

 

Part 3:

Q - Mine are visible. Why?

A - Then pull up your pants, that's why. Ow, you mean thè mines? Well, it is a board game. Some sort of cloak or stealth was possible. But a bit to hard for players to understand or play. Perhaps in an electronic version it is possible to implement this. But then I might as well ask for a real RTS. So, we keep a board game playable version in mind.

 

Q - The Howitzer has no chance against approaching infantry or jeeps? Even Assault Tanks have better chances?

A - The trick in protecting your Howitzers is their range. First; if you have several regions filled in front of the Howitzer. A lot of units can't get close. Second; protect them with walls in the front and back. Unfortunately the enemy might still use the flank card. Third; use them in a open field, or a chokepoint path. Where they serve as an extra support for any other region that has to fight.

 

Q - The Guard Towers and Turrets don't have much range. They aren't useful?

A - There are plenty of units that can get in range. It is simply to keep them out with a cheap solution. Just like how mines and walls keep units out.

Q - Ok, the Grenade Tower. There is only 1 jeep that would get into range for fighting. But you simply don't do that?

A - You are correct. But remember, you can upgrade simply every unit by training on your own units. With only 450XP it would already have + 1 range. They have very cheap XP training. While all the units have a much more expensive training costs. On the other hand, it still has dual damage. So 3 of these are able to destroy a jeep that passes by. Once again, a cheap walling system.

 

 

Edit:

Some of these calculations are now outdated.

Edited February 2, 2014 by X3M

[X3M]

Right, some more faq's where coming in. I gathered them and post them now here. Perhaps it will give some people strategy idea's and a better understanding of the game. Or it becomes more confusing, then I suggest to ignore these faq's .

Part 4:

 

Q - I think I have found a useful way now for the Guard Towers and Turrets. They are good in curved canyons, unit won't be taking those paths then. Although, why would I increase their range with XP?

A - That's a good approach of using them. And the answer to your question is, an enemy might run though your region and enter your base behind it. In that case, during his/her movement, you might kill some units. And use that experience for more range. Then you might be able to defend your base as well. And surprise your opponent that thought to be at a safe distance at first.

 

Q - I did some calculations on the regions where you can build, and the walls that you can build. You can build on 18 regions with the Construction Yard. That means each region has at least 6 wooden fences, 2 Sandbags and 1 Concrete Wall. Ignoring the Concrete Walls, I already have 3 Wooden fences and 1 Sandbags in the front line and the same stuff to cover my back. So when someone attacks me there, that means 72 hit points against anti infantry weapons or 24 hit points against anti light (jeeps) weapons and against anti heavy weapons. The cost of this little protection is only €180 in the front and €180 in the back. There is no squad able to destroy all of this before reaching more expensive units. And rebuilding it is no problem.

A - You noticed fine. But remember. The enemy can attack your resource units instead. The enemy can use flank cards. The enemy can attack from more then 1 region. The enemy also can do hit an run tactics and train on you. So, those walls are good protection. But hiding behind them will mean a slow and certain death to you.

 

Q - Hey, the Snipers have a way in defeating those Howitzers.

A - Yes, if the Snipers have an assault card, they actually can kill Howitzers before they return fire. And if you fool the Howitzers with some bait, you can even do without an assault card.

 

Q - Snipers are OP.

A - They can be defeated in many ways. Remember the anti infantry units in the Jeep and Tank section? And if you go mass Rifle Infantry, with use of the environments, you can catch them too.

 

Q - Snipers can be walled in as well, with any counter there is. So OP.

A - Your enemy might be ignoring your Snipers and simply go for other units that your have in that region. And your enemy might take some "anti" Sniper material as meat. If you make a mistake. Or your enemy has drawn the right card after a while, your Snipers are done for.

 

Q - Are mines OP? They look OP since you can rebuild 1/3th of all the mines within one round.

A - You would need €3600 each round. The resources will be significantly less. If correct, the highest possible income would only be €1200 on the known 1v1 maps. So it is 1/9th rebuild speed. Even though your harvesters could carry a total of €5600 if used as storage. Anyway, with €1200 you can rebuild 20 anti infantry mines. That would be your fastest rebuild speed. The sweeping with all sweepers has a speed of 24,5 mines. No matter what mine you sweep. On top of that, they gain experience for it too. After 6 rounds, 1 region of sweepers will have about +16,7% faster sweeping speed, or 28,5 mines.

 

Q - How about placing the mines when needed?

A - If you mean as early defence? Then they are rather useful.

If you mean for chasing away the enemy out of your base? Then you have a little problem:

First, you need to declare that you are going to build them. Then the enemy moves in, but you don't know if he/she would be moving in. So he/she would only move in if you didn't declare building mines.

Once moved in, you would be declaring in the second round for those mines. Then he/she would be moving away, or stays for an attack.

In round 3 you finally can stop the enemy with mines. But it might be too late. With luck for your enemy, he/she will have had the chance for 2 attacks with the same squad. And whatever is targeted, that will be dead. Only short ranged units would be pulling this stunt. They are often numerous. So mines would have the least effect. And you never can build enough for instantly taking out the attacking squad. With the €1200 that is.

 

A smart player moves in, forces you to place mines, or cancelling them. And once placed, he/she simply sweeps them.

 

Q - How about I wall in the mines?

A - That is not possible by the rules. Mines are sub terrain, so the mine sweepers have sub terrain weapons. They ignore what is on the land. Walls can't block anti air weapons either.

 

Q - Will the future have sub terrain walls then?

A - Perhaps :D

 

Edit:

Again, some of these FAQ's have become outdated.

Edited February 2, 2014 by X3M

[X3M]

A nice start, good job

 

- Unit's didn't move? Or, I don't know which one could move. Might be my fault.

 

- Out of experience I know that players rather have hexagons that lie down than standing ones. So do my maps. Is it fixable?

 

- Hexagons did show another line. And sometimes I see very small and long gaps between the hexagons. Might be my screen.

 

- I see a lot of 6, is that the health? If so, started we communicating back when I only had 6 health and notching else? I believe the Laser Tanks and Minotaurus are supposed to have different health? Perhaps you could post here what statistics you where using. Maybe there needs to be a fix to this. After all, you need to start with the right database for proper future works.

 

- I like the dessert texture. Did it come with a package with other terrain?

[X3M]

Anyway, I think it is time for me to do a request. If anyone is going to read it:

In need of pictures, the feeling has to be that they belong to each other. Meaning, you can't combine C&C dawn with C&C3 pictures since they are different. But red alert and dawn are somehow the same.

 

Now, for this board game I would like to have the same. Without using my awe full drawing skills of course.

 

The units that we need are:

 

Infantry;

Worker

Rifle Infantry

Grenadier

Rocket Soldier

Sniper

Mine Sweeper

 

Jeeps/Vehicles;

Gatherer (hum-vee type of unit)

Gracer (Jeep with a chain gun on top, like the Ranger from RA)

Attack Jeep (Jeep with a "single" grenade launcher on top)

Rocket Jeep (Jeep with a "single" rocket launcher on top)

Mortar Jeep

Mine Hunter (A jeep, have no idea how it would look like)

 

Tanks; (but rather light compared to future "light" units ;)

Cargo Truck (something like a truck :) )

Assault Tank (A light tank with a chain gun on top

Artillery (A rather light cannon version, does not kill infantry)

Battle Tank (basic very light tank)

Rocket Launcher (early WW2, has 2 rockets on top)

Mine Crusher (like the mine layer from RA, but now it kills mines)

 

Defences;

Wooden Fences

Sand Bags

Concrete Walls

 

Chain Gun (operated by 1 person)

Mortar (operated by 1 person)

Howitzer (still operated by 1 person)

 

Guard Tower, like the one from Dawn

Grenade Tower, somehow we need to know it shoots grenades instead, this time 2 grenades

Rocket Tower, 1 rocket, but we need to know by seeing.

 

Quad Gun, a bunker that has 4 rifles, perhaps like the AA from C&C3, but then against infantry

Grenade Launcher, a bunker again

Cannon Turret, like in Dawn

 

Anti Infantry Mine, like RA?

Allround MIne, have no idea yet how this one would look like. Something that serves for shredding wheeled units.

Anti Tank Mine, like RA?

 

I think I need to find the time for drawing pictures myself. But it will take a loooooooooong time. Unless a skilful person would like to give it a try.

[X3M]

I don't know why.

http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/the-cytherian-annexation/wikis/cytheria-planetary-survey

But I think this site will be of good use to me as learning material.

 

The missions that I have thought of. Those little maps combined don't really fit into a big map.

So, a planet has to be thought of. And then be mapped properly.

 

This also means that each future map will have some sort of entrance at one of the edges. It makes sense. Right?

[X3M]

Decided to work the other way around with mapping. Starting with a planet first is kinda lame, it fixes future works too. So I will think of a mission, and work from there with each new mission. Sometimes a place revisited, or implemented in a bigger area.

 

Some thoughts now.

If you have suggestions on the following, please let me know.

 

Not sure yet how big the place will be. But each €3600 (6 Nod Light tanks) area will have a diameter of 100 meters, this means that moving with speed 1 is 100 meters in 1 turn. A light Infantry unit will be moving 200 meters each turn. But also can fire 200 meters far. Now, it is still a game, so realistic stuff is not really needed. However, it still needs to sound logical enough for a story and pathtracking.

 

Or else it would sound chaotic for me. (And some others)

 

With this as a given, translated to the real world. It would mean that the light Infantry unit (4 km/hour), needs 180 seconds to walk 2 regions. So 1 turn/action could be 3 minutes. This sounds reasonable. So I aprove..... for now.

 

R(egion) (1 Range)

Area is 8660 m².

1 hexagon play field for a squad (can contain anything of units and/or structures in combination).

It can contain various types of terrain. In sections of things that can divide 3600. (9 gives sections of 400, 16 gives sections of 225 etc.). So 4 sections where 2 are water, the terrain is for 50% water. Each region will have a texture corresponding its values of terrain. There are no terrains that can block units with less then 100% mountain, if Z100 is open, a unit of Z100 can pass. A zoom on this Region will contain information about the squad in there.

 

K(ilo)R (area 36 R)

Area is 0,31 km².

1 sub mission, 1 hexagon that contains 36 Regions. There are 1/2th and 1/3th Regions.

The very first mission will be only this big. The biggest distance in such a KR is from 1 corner to the other, 8 steps. Or 4 turns for a light infantry. A simple mission will contain at least 1 KR, but can contain several KR. Each R is still visible like mentioned in R.

 

M(ega)R (area 36 KR)

Area is 11,2 km².

1 mission.

It will be viewed again as a hexagon. But now you see the KR as possible choices. Sometimes you see 2, 3 or more connected. Each KR will have a texture now, that corresponds with the terrain as if these where only segments in R. Sometimes a mission has several MR. The missions can be connected nicely with sub missions. So certain area's will have several revisits.

 

G(iga)R (area 36 MR)

Area is 404 km².

1 Chapter of missions.

Around 400 km² or a 20 km by 20 km area. Now the MR are visible like little hexagons. Their textures are based on the KR. Again, 1 chapter might contain several MR. This size is comparible with a piece of land with 2 to 3 medium sized towns in it.

 

T(erra)R (area 36 GR)

Area is 14546 km².

1 Campagin with several chapters. In a place that has the size of between the following 2 countries :)

158  Oost-Timor 14.919 km² 159  Bahama's 13.943 km²

 

The area is about 40% that of the Netherlands. So I got good comparison for myself. :)

 

Well, going beyond this would mean several campaings in the next version of the game. But that is far into the future work.

As you can see, no need for a planet filled up already.

 

---

 

Let's compare Dune 2 with this :)

1 Campaign, 1 campaign map, has 27 Area's in total.

Each Mission has 32x32 fields or 62x62 fields. 3 and 24.

A total of 95328 fields. 1 field contains 1 unit.

 

The size of the units are discuable, but lets say 5 meters in lenght. So 25 m² for 1 field.

The entire Dune2 map would have only 2,38 km².

If the Dune 2 map is folded into a sphere, this sphere would roughly have a diameter of only 871 meters.

I don't know about Dune 2000 though.

[X3M]

I am a guy?

 

(stupid dutch humour)

 

---

 

Actually response:

SORRY!

Stupid thing is, I turned notifications off, then I wouldn't receive emails? That was the plan.

Seems, I don't get the red 1 here either. Will check it immidiately. And check it immidiately.

 

---

 

By the way, this guy did roughly the same as I have mentioned:

http://muleabides.wordpress.com/2011/09/02/hexomancy-making-the-perfect-maps-for-adventurer-conqueror-king/

 

His large hexagons contain 25 smaller ones. The central of each is a hexagon (which is in my opinion that of a pro).

The difference is that he then uses normal boxes. But I guess he wants to print it on A4 (maybe A3).

 

His game is more that of a sand box. So there is not much zooming in for specific missions. You can simply walk out of a mission and do something differently somewhere else.

 

I am planning on locking the player into a situation where he/she HAS! to fight.

 

For now I am planning on how to draw a KR with ease. If I can get it planned right. I will be able to do so in paint. The shape wont be perfect but close. And empty of course. First I need to know the size before planning what to paint in the R.

 

---

 

Yes, this is what I am talking about. 36 in 1.

http://delvelord.blogspot.nl/2012_08_01_archive.html

He is putting it to good use too.

[X3M]

Instead of 1 KR, I decided to show you guys, 1 MR.

This will be used by me, for planning the first campaign.

 

24 bit map costs 12 mB.

16 colours, only 2 mB.

Seems the PNG still has perfect pixels and costs only 134 Kb. (2161 x 1945)

If I where to scale up to 1 GR, it would be like around 5 mB in PNG. Not to mention, the size of the picture in 24 bit map. Ah, o well, 0,5 gB it would be. :)

 

I have not yet decided on what each region will be. O well, enjoy.

 

 

If you want a clean version, please let me know. I can email it to you in BMP or PNG. BMP has a bit brighter green though.