The True History of Mankind

[athanasios]

New findings, old hidden truths. What you were NOT taught in the school.

Please help build this thread.

[athanasios]

Navigation is at least 130.000 years old, according to indirect evidence from the Greek island of Crete.

For more information read Archaeology.

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The solar calendar was not invented in Babylon. Here is a Minoan solar calendar dating back to 2200 BCE (19 centuries older than the Babylonian calendar):

http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=11386&subid=2&pubid=48852950

It is of interest that Dr Tsikritzis who did the research, finds promising recent findings as they may lead to the decipherment of Linear A.

[Dante]

Is this where you refer to your "advanced civilisations" again?

Previous advanced civilizations destroyed themselves due to global warming...

Yuh-huh... Right.

[ErasOmnius]

I was not taught in school that the United States will do ANYTHING that it takes to ensure that its' trading empire continues at full steam ahead world-wide.

Sweat shops in Bangladesh, child labor in Honduras, natural resource exploitation in The Congo, The War in Iraq. Anything, all political parties, all the time.

[SandChigger]

(What, you mean you two actually look at his links? How silly/bored is that?! LOL.)

[Edric O]

I must resist the temptation to rename this "The Pseudohistory Thread". Must. Resist.

[athanasios]

So you call pseudohistory findings mentioned in the official magazine of the Archaeological Institute of America ? Interesting point of view - Yet another conspiracy theory I never heard about! I 'll keep it in mind.

And those links were meant to be read and studied. Otherwise no reason to post here.

Please help build this thread do not post nonsense. Provide a logical argument and data to support your disagreement-if you can...

I quoted: 'indirect evidence'. And everyone is aware that indirect is neither 'direct' nor a 'hypothesis' (like the ones mentioned in another thread where ErasOmnius still awaits an answer was accused for trolling and the thread was locked...)

No trolling here please.

[Edric O]

Ok, fair enough, after reading your links I saw that they are indeed serious history (or archaeology, in the case of the first one). I apologize.

Now, I'm really not convinced by the claim that navigation is 130,000 years old. All they did was find some stone tools on the island of Crete. That doesn't mean early humans or hominids actually built boats to get there.

[SandChigger]

No trolling here please.

As a purely theoretical/philosophical question, is it even possible to troll in a thread that is itself essentially an example of trolling? Hmmm... meta-trolling?

[SandChigger]

That doesn't mean early humans or hominids actually built boats to get there.

No, especially if they could have walked.

When was it the Mediterranean basin flooded again?

[Edric O]

5-6 million years ago, actually. So no, they couldn't have walked. But they would have had considerably less water to cross, given the much lower sea level at the time of the ice ages.

Or the tools could have been brought to Crete by something other than human travelers. Or the dating of the tools could be wrong. How exactly did they date them anyway? You can't carbon-date stone. You usually find the age of stone tools by carbon-dating nearby organic remains, but if they had found an actual 130,000 year old settlement, presumably they would have announced that instead of the tools.

[athanasios]

The article mentioned that the then shortest distance was 40 miles (quite big to swim) and that the findings come from two sites. From various sources:

The various (not one) sites for excavation were carefully chosen as the most possible suitable settlements.

They will continue research on other sites provided they get the needed funds.

It is correct what you mentioned about dating from surroundings. Objects are already transferred to USA for more accurate dating.

Here is an article with more details:

http://www.pasthorizons.com/index.php/archives/01/2011/crossing-seas-130000-years-ago

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Now regarding other places with similar findings I mention the similar findings in the island of Lesbos (but I cannot verify the accuracy as I failed to find an official source, except that they quote from αρχαιολογία magazine). Of course Lesbos is near the mainland, but still they had to cross the sea. Those do not bear marks of sea water, so were made locally (or carried there?) Dating: Middle Paleolithic 100.000 - 30.000 years but some have mixed techniques (Levallois technique which is first found in Lower Paleolithic 200.000).

The official link of αρχαιολογία magazine does not provide free older issues to verify (http://www.arxaiologia.gr/)

Most detailed quote from the magazine(?) (in Greek-please use google translate for details-main points already mentioned):

200.000 περίπου ετών - Παλαιολιθικός υπαίθριος καταυλισμός – Λέσβος

Τρεις διπρόσωποι χειροπελέκες

Οι γεωγραφικές και κλιματολογικές συνθήκες την εποχή του Πλειστόκαινου στην Λέσβο δεν ήταν απαγορευτικές για το πέρασμα ή την παραμονή του ανθρώπου.

42 χιλιόμετρα δυτικά της Μυτιλήνης, στην περιοχή Ροδαφνίδια, εντοπίστηκαν πρόσφατα ίχνη υπαίθριας εγκατάστασης της Παλαιολιθικής εποχής.

Στον παλαιολιθικό λιθώνα, που καταλαμβάνει έκταση άνω των 400 στρεμμάτων, υπάρχουν άφθονα εργαλεία και αποκρούσματα τα οποία δεν φέρουν σημάδια μεταφοράς τους από το νερό, γεγονός που υποδηλώνει επιτόπια παραγωγή.

Τα εργαλεία είναι παράγωγα διαφόρων τύπων λιθοτεχνίας* : α) Αχελαίας, β) Πρωτο-Levallois, γ) Levallois χωρίς προετοιμασία [εγκάρσια, πλευρικά, στρεβλά πλευρικά, με κυρτή ακμή, τύπου Quina, λιμαξόσχημα], γλυφίδες, τρυπάνια-σουβλιά (οπέατα, percoir), μισχωτά εργαλεία, εργαλεία με εγκοπές, μαχαίρια με φυσική ράχη, αιχμές Levallois, διπλά οδοντωτά, τρεις διπρόσωποι χειροπελέκεις (ο ένας σπασμένος) διαστάσεων 11x7 8,5x4,5 και 6x4 εκατοστών και πολλά αταξινόμητα.

Βρέθηκαν ελάχιστα λεπτολιθικά (λεπίδες, φολίδες, μικροί πυρήνες). Το ρετουσάρισμα συχνά απουσιάζει, είναι απότομο, υποπαράλληλο, εναλλασσόμενο ή ορθό.

Σχεδόν όλα τα εργαλεία είναι από κερατόλιθο, χρώματος ξανθού και καστανού, κηρώδους έως υαλώδους στιλπνότητος. Ελάχιστα εργαλεία είναι από αφυελωμένο ηφαιστειακό γυαλί (οψιανό), ανδεσίτη και βασάλτη.

Δεν έχουν βρεθεί όστρακα (κομμάτια) αγγείων.

Τα χαρακτηριστικά της λιθοτεχνίας ανήκουν στη μέση Παλαιολιθική (100.000 - 35.000 έτη πριν από σήμερα), ενώ η συνύπαρξη Αχελαίας και Levallois τεχνικής θα μπορούσε να μετατοπίσει την χρονολογία στο τέλος της Κατώτερης Παλαιολιθικής (περί του 200.000 πριν από σήμερα).

Η αφθονία των ευρημάτων ενισχύει την πιθανότητα η περιοχή να χρησιμοποιήθηκε ως καταυλισμός-εργαστήριο παρά ως πέρασμα κυνηγών. Η τοποθεσία φαίνεται να εγκαταλείφθηκε κατά την Προϊστορική εποχή.

* (Η αναφορά στον τύπο των εργαλείων έγινε αναγκαστικά βάσει της τυπολογίας του Bordes (1988) και του Inizan (1992), παρόλο που αυτή βασίζεται στα ευρήματα της Δυτικής Ευρώπης. Η ανάγκη τυπολογίας βασισμένη στα ελληνικά ευρήματα θεωρείται, το λιγότερο, επιτακτική)…

[ΠΗΓΗ κειμένου και φωτογραφίας : Άρθρο των κ.κ. Χ.Β. Χαρίση, P. Durand, Μ. Αξιώτη, Τ.Β. Χαρίση (ερευνητές) στο περιοδικό "ΑΡΧΑΙΟΛΟΓΙΑ & ΤΕΧΝΕΣ" τ.76 (Ιουλ. – Σεπτ. 2000) σελ. 83].

from here: http://www.hellinon.net/NeesSelides/Perikatagogis.htm

[SandChigger]

A research team led by Thomas Strasser of Providence College and Eleni Panagopoulou of the Greek Ministry of Culture announced the discovery of stone tools at two sites on the island of Crete that are between 130,000 and 700,000 years old. The tools resemble those made by Homo heidelbergensis and Homo erectus, showing that one of these early human ancestors boated across at least 40 miles of open sea to reach the island, the earliest indirect evidence of seafaring.

Christ, they're not even suggesting the tool makers/users were sapiens. And they certainly weren't GREEKS.

[athanasios]

Thanks for the constructive conclusions...

[SandChigger]

What, you think they were Greeks?

[athanasios]

Depends on what you define by the term Greeks. Since the matter is subjective I won't bother to provide an answer.

[SandChigger]

Coward.

Oh, sorry, I meant cowherd.

(But I guess goatherd would be closer, right?)

If they weren't sapiens and none of their DNA passed directly into the people living in the area later... Then again, maybe THEY were the real Greeks and you lot are just a bunch of Iannis-come-latelies?!

[arnoldo]

A research team led by Thomas Strasser of Providence College and Eleni Panagopoulou of the Greek Ministry of Culture announced the discovery of stone tools at two sites on the island of Crete that are between 130,000 and 700,000 years old.. .

If they were Crete wouldn't they be called Cretins?

[ErasOmnius]

Ath, when you say 'Greek', are you talking about all people of the Eastern Meditteranean area?

[athanasios]

That would be wrong.

If they were Crete wouldn't they be called Cretins?

H. erectus had a cranial capacity greater than that of Homo habilis (although the Dmanisi specimens have distinctively small crania): the earliest remains show a cranial capacity of 850 cm³, while the latest Javan specimens measure up to 1100 cm³,^[17] overlapping that of H. sapiens.

...

Homo erectus was probably the first human to live in a hunter-gatherer society, and anthropologists such as Richard Leakey believe that it was socially more like modern humans than the more Australopithecus-like species before it. Likewise, increased cranial capacity generally coincides with the more sophisticated tools occasionally found with fossils.

...

the discovery of H. ergaster/erectus vertebrae some 150,000 years older than the Turkana Boy in Dmanisi, Georgia, that reflect vocal capabilities within the range of H. sapiens.^[22] Both brain-size and the presence of the Broca's area also support the use of articulate language.^[23] H. erectus was probably the first hominid to live in small, familiar band-societies similar to modern hunter-gatherer band-societies.^[24] H. erectus/ergaster is thought to be the first hominid to hunt in coordinated groups, use complex tools, and care for infirm or weak companions.

Ancient Island Tools Suggest Homo erectus Was a Seafarer

[arnoldo]

If they were <from> Crete wouldn't they be called Cretins?

That would be wrong.

Ancient Island Tools Suggest Homo erectus Was a Seafarer

If these ancient people were that advanced, then it's possible that Plato's account of Atlantis may have a historical basis.

[athanasios]

That it does have a historical basis is certain. What is not known is the location of 'Atlantis'. Suggested sites are practically placed all over the world.

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Göbekli Tepe

... circa 10,000 BC.

... Each T-shaped pillar varies between 40 to 60 tonnes, leaving us scratching our heads as to how on earth they accomplished such a monumental feat. In a time when even simple hand tools were hard to come by, how did they get these stone blocks there, and how did they erect them?

[SandChigger]

Plato's Atlantis does have a historical basis; google the Minoan eruption of Thera/Santorini.

(People from Crete are Cretans. But "cretins" is not completely unrelated to this thread.)

[athanasios]

Do some more research. It is not only Thera that is proposed as the basis of the myth of Atlantis. Besides Thera's eruption was not very distant in the past. Some have related Thera's eruption with the Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt. A more accurate candidate (according to Plato's writings) would be the area of the Canary Islands. Of course we can leave our imagination to guess as much as we like, because natural disasters have repeatedly changed the topography and caused global effects.

[SandChigger]

Why don't you do SOME research?

Yeah, I've seen the Exodus-connection nonsense. (Hint: "nonsense" means I'm not impressed. Where's the evidence that the Hebrews were really ever in Egypt? Oh those things that you're liable, to read in your Bible, they ain't necessarily so!)

And just as with the Hebrew scriptures, just because Plato says it was 10,000 years before doesn't mean it was. So the Santorini eruption is perfectly plausible.

But, you know, if some other story fits better into the Greater Grecian Version of History, far be it for the rest of the world to say anything.