How did you feel when Paul died?

[Lawliet]

I hated the way Paul died. One of my favourites characters ever, i think he deserved a "better" death. Or not dying at all, for that matter. Seriously, stabbed? Paul Atreides stabbed? that's hard to believe...Pretty much every mayor character of the original Dune died in some kind of a "lame" way in the sequels. Not too fond on Chanis's death either. What do you think?

[ACSephiroth]

I hated the way Paul died. One of my favourites characters ever, i think he deserved a "better" death. Or not dying at all, for that matter. Seriously, stabbed? Paul Atreides stabbed? that's hard to believe...Pretty much every mayor character of the original Dune died in a very "lame" way. Not too fond on Chanis's death either. What do you think?

He had to die somehow. And don't forget he was blind and no longer prescient (if I recall right) when it happened. I think Thufur Hawit had the most noble death of them all.

[Dante]

Disappointed, though with the chracters, not the author.

I think it's how he would have wanted to go: ignobly and without pretention.

[ErasOmnius]

I hated the way Paul died. One of my favourites characters ever, i think he deserved a "better" death. Or not dying at all, for that matter. Seriously, stabbed? Paul Atreides stabbed? that's hard to believe...Pretty much every mayor character of the original Dune died in a very "lame" way. Not too fond on Chanis's death either. What do you think?

I'm a nice guy, but why would you want to mess with Frank Herbert? On this web-site, we disagree on a lot of topics, but there is one topic everyone is unanimous in -- that Frank Herbert was a great writer.

One of the aspects of the mini-series that I hate the most is that Alia did not thrust herself out of the window, and instead stabbed herself.

'Every major character of the original Dune died in a "lame" way'. Huh? What? Who are you? I almost want to say, 'Go away'. But I won't, because others, on topics involving our present time and world, have said that to me.

[Lawliet]

I'm a nice guy, but why would you want to mess with Frank Herbert? On this web-site, we disagree on a lot of topics, but there is one topic everyone is unanimous in -- that Frank Herbert was a great writer.

One of the aspects of the mini-series that I hate the most is that Alia did not thrust herself out of the window, and instead stabbed herself.

'Every major character of the original Dune died in a "lame" way'. Huh? What? Who are you? I almost want to say, 'Go away'. But I won't, because others, on topics involving our present time and world, have said that to me.

When did i say that Frank Herbert wasn't a great writer? In fact, he's my favourite writer by far. To me, Dune is greatest book ever written. That's why i'm on this website.

I guess i did not explain myself correctly. Most characters of the original Dune died in a "lame" way afterwards, i mean in the sequels. Paul stabbed and Chani giving birth, for example.

Regarding your last sentence, emmm, what the hell? Are we not entitled to have our own opinions? There are things in the sequels that i did not like. Herbert's my favourite writer, but he's not some kind of a God i worship.

[Dante]

Don't take anything Eras says too seriously, Lawliet. He misplaced the family brain cell a while back and has been having trouble ever since.

As for dying in less than dramatic ways... well, death is a bit anticlimatic like that. You don't get time to draw it out, generally. Spout a few profound last words and strike a pose as things go dark. If anything Herbert's grounded take on death is a sobering contrast to the fantastic lives his characters lead (and I mean that in the original sense of being fantastical), and a handy reminder that even prophets and God-Kings are subject to the same ugly laws as the rest of us. No matter how great your power, strength or intelligence, you will die, and it will be brutal.

Or put another way,

"Our bodies break down, sometimes when we're ninety, sometimes before we're even born, but it always happens and there's never any dignity in it. I don't care if you can walk, see, wipe your own ass. It's always ugly. Always. We can live with dignity, we can't die with it."

- House

[Lawliet]

Don't take anything Eras says too seriously, Lawliet. He misplaced the family brain cell a while back and has been having trouble ever since.

As for dying in less than dramatic ways... well, death is a bit anticlimatic like that. You don't get time to draw it out, generally. Spout a few profound last words and strike a pose as things go dark. If anything Herbert's grounded take on death is a sobering contrast to the fantastic lives his characters lead (and I mean that in the original sense of being fantastical), and a handy reminder that even prophets and God-Kings are subject to the same ugly laws as the rest of us. No matter how great your power, strength or intelligence, you will die, and it will be brutal.

Or put another way,

"Our bodies break down, sometimes when we're ninety, sometimes before we're even born, but it always happens and there's never any dignity in it. I don't care if you can walk, see, wipe your own ass. It's always ugly. Always. We can live with dignity, we can't die with it."

- House

Brilliant! Your whole point of view and the way you explained yourself was great. Well put, man. I think you could be a writer. :)

I remenbered that House quotation by the way. Well, only the ending.

[ErasOmnius]

Let me re-phrase myself.

I think that the way that Chani died was both fitting and accurate. It was the result of a detailed and intricate plot involving her and the Tleilaxu Masters. Her death resulted in the Tleilaxu finding out that extreme stress caused their gholas to 'remember' their past. Her death was a pivotal point in the Dune Universe, and in the history of mankind.

Paul's death is anti-climactic because I think that we would like for it to be resemble Leto II's death. A larger than life character falling off of a bridge to his doom. His assassins gather around, and he tells them of their future. His sandtrout the flow into the river carrying their 'pearls' into tomorrow. That is really one of the ultimate death's in any scifi book series. Paul's death is a simple death in Arrakeen on Dune.

[Dante]

Leto crawled naked from a river and died in the mud. Paul was stabbed to death by his own religious followers on the steps of his own temple, surrounded by his faithful. It's all in the telling of it. Personally I find any drama in the deaths to be offset by the simplicity of their presentation. Witness Lucilla, Taraza, Odrade.

Chani's death was not of Tleilaxu doing, they simply took advantage of it. That doesn't make it any more or less fitting. You're getting confused, Eras, though that's hardly a surprise. If anything Chani's death is fitting because she died doing what Irulan never would.

And thank you, Lawliet. I do turn my mind to writing sometimes, though only as a hobby.

[arnoldo]

Paul, in a sense, died when Chani died giving birth to the twins. At the time, he certainly struggled greatly within himself to resist bringing Chani back as a ghola. At the end of Sandworms of Dune, with Paul and Chani reunited, it is a fitting ending considering all of the tragedy they went through in their earlier lives.

[SandChigger]

At the end of Sandworms of Dune, with Paul and Chani reunited, it is a fitting ending considering all of the tragedy they went through in their earlier lives.

You do get paid for this stuff, right? I mean, come on, tell us The DUNE Machine is giving you SOMETHING for your efforts. ARCs of the new books maybe? Free merch from KJA's Wordfur webstore? Preview peeks at Byron's riveting movie reviews?!

Anyway, yeah, the "grand finale" was SO in keeping with Frank Herbert's "happy ending" pattern. Very fitting.

Yeah, Paul died. How did I feel? I roared, I wept, I rent my raiments and poured ash upon my head. I rolled on the floor and wet myself. I wrote bad checks.

It was a worthy death, noble in its way. Much better than the Fremen way, being worm bait.

[ErasOmnius]

Paul, in a sense, died when Chani died giving birth to the twins. At the time, he certainly struggled greatly within himself to resist bringing Chani back as a ghola. At the end of Sandworms of Dune, with Paul and Chani reunited, it is a fitting ending considering all of the tragedy they went through in their earlier lives.

There are parts of Sandworms that are okay...but this is definitely not one of them. Having Paul and Chani go off in the sunset with happy slave Machines terra-forming Dune is definitely not what Frank Herbert had in mind.

Leto crawled naked from a river and died in the mud.

I'm glad were able to discuss this. Leto's death started with a shot on a high bridge, pretty dramatic. The shot killed Hwi and Moneo, and started the Famine Times.

Personally I find any drama in the deaths to be offset by the simplicity of their presentation. Witness Lucilla, Taraza, Odrade.

I do wish Odrade's death were explained a bit more grandiose.

And thank you, Lawliet. I do turn my mind to writing sometimes, though only as a hobby.

Your fan fiction writing is great, especially that stuff from September. I wish I could read it again, over and over, but I can't even see it anymore.

[arnoldo]

There are parts of Sandworms that are okay...but this is definitely not one of them. Having Paul and Chani go off in the sunset with happy slave Machines terra-forming Dune is definitely not what Frank Herbert had in mind.

Having Paul and Chani reunited was a possibility that FH gave us in ChapterHouse Dune;

Scytale rubbed his breast, reminding himself of what was hidden there with such skill that not even a scar marked the place. Each Master had carried this resource—a nullentropy capsule preserving the seed cells of a multitude: fellow Masters of the central kehl, Face Dancers, technical specialists and others he knew would be attractive to the women of Shaitan . . . and to many weakling powindah! Paul Atreides and his beloved Chani were there. (Oh what that had cost in searching garments of the dead for random cells!)

And of course, it possible the ending was based on an outline FH had written.

[ErasOmnius]

Having Paul and Chani reunited was a possibility that FH gave us in ChapterHouse Dune;

And of course, it possible the ending was based on an outline FH had written.

I am not saying that Sandworms is trash, or that Brian and Kevin did not have the right to finish a story 'based off' their father's notes. I do think it would be better is they had simply said this was their version of the notes [if they exist]. It would be more accurate.

Their is a certain admiration for Hunters and Sandworms. Otherwise, I wouldn't have codified and placed most things from the two books on Dune Wiki for over a year.

But Paul and Chani on their Eden-like version of Dune in bliss? With Thinking Machines doing their bidding? That seems very un-Frank Herbert. More accurately, very un-Dune.

Do I think that it would have been better for Daniel and Marty to be independent Enhanced Face Dancers like Khrone, instead of Omnius and Erasmus? Yes.

Duncan as the Ultimate Kwisatz? Okay, fits fairly well. Would have preferred a battle between his faction, the Murbella faction, and maybe a Sheeana faction.

Sandworms alive on Dune in 'hibernation', awakened by ghola-Waff? Bad.

But for all of our hand-wringing, it is simply Brian and Kevin's story. Legally, they can write it. But, they should not have invoked Frank's memory with the alleged 'Dune 7' disk.

[Dante]

Their father?

[athanasios]

In a way or another. Well, Satan's father is God...

[ErasOmnius]

Their father?

Brian's father. BTW, Lampadas was a great excerpt.

[Dante]

If your opinion ever starts to mean anything, I'll let you know.

In conclusion: the prequels and post-Chapterhouse sequels are shite, and best never mentioned again.

Back to the topic at hand: death.

Note that Frank Herbert rarely dwelled on the moment of death, even with important characters. Duncan, Leto, Paul, Chani, Mohiam, compare the death of these characters with, say, those of Thufir and Alia. Alia's was uncharacteristically drawn out, Thufir's understandably so, so perhaps the length of those descriptions was simply a dramatic device to reflect their protracted demise. Or maybe someone else has an alternative suggestion?

[ErasOmnius]

If your opinion ever starts to mean anything, I'll let you know.

Oh well, I thought it was good. Very much like reading Frank Herbert.

Back to the topic at hand: death.

Note that Frank Herbert rarely dwelled on the moment of death, even with important characters. Duncan, Leto, Paul, Chani, Mohiam, compare the death of these characters with, say, those of Thufir and Alia. Alia's was uncharacteristically drawn out, Thufir's understandably so, so perhaps the length of those descriptions was simply a dramatic device to reflect their protracted demise. Or maybe someone else has an alternative suggestion?

Alia's death was probably supposed to be drawn out so as to reflect a happy ending.

[HarryCanyon]

I felt very sad when i read the book at age 13 because Paul was one of my book heroes and i didn't want him to die, i mean he just left his two children behind and all that which made me feel sorry for them to loose their dad.

[Lawliet]

I felt very sad when i read the book at age 13 because Paul was one of my book heroes and i didn't want him to die, i mean he just left his two children behind and all that which made me feel sorry for them to loose their dad.

To be honest, i really didn't care much about his children. Specially Leto...for obvious reasons he wouldn't be very affected...The only character i kind of feel sorry for is Jessica. Leto dies, and then Paul dies, and then Alia dies. She looses all. What's left for her? Poor Jessica.

[Dante]

One of the earliest reviews of Dune that I read stated something along the lines of "Dune is Jessica's story." It's coloured my perception ever since, and in many ways it's true. She was the protagonist for much of it, and the consequences of her actions reverberate throughout the series. People like to focus on the masculine: Paul, Leto, Leto II, Duncan, but without Jessica there really would have been no Dune as we know it. And it's true, in many ways hers is a tragic story. But at least she retired peacefully. I suppose that's better than being bisected by a lasgun.

[HarryCanyon]

One of the earliest reviews of Dune that I read stated something along the lines of "Dune is Jessica's story." It's coloured my perception ever since, and in many ways it's true. She was the protagonist for much of it, and the consequences of her actions reverberate throughout the series. People like to focus on the masculine: Paul, Leto, Leto II, Duncan, but without Jessica there really would have been no Dune as we know it. And it's true, in many ways hers is a tragic story. But at least she retired peacefully. I suppose that's better than being bisected by a lasgun.

But come on, who didn't cry when Paul died?

[Dante]

...Me?

[Lawliet]

But come on, who didn't cry when Paul died?

I don't think anyone cried, it's just a book...but i felt that the character deserved a "better" death, Paul Atreides stabbed just doesn't make much sense to me.