A mosque near Ground-Zero, New York?

[athanasios]

LOL!

Nope.

Just because we don't have available info it doesn't mean that other media, Western corporations, NGOs, etc are 'angels'. Same happens here. The assumptions they make are ridiculous, whereas often they distort or not even cover the real news because it doesn't fit 'them'. I put quotation marks because those media and journalists simply are dogs, sorry puppets, getting fed, sorry paid, sorry even that is wrong-bribed, by their masters.

[ErasOmnius]

Nope, it looks like Fox News is the demise of Western civilization. You know that Saudi prince that might be funding Park 51 and was accused of supporting terrorism? Well, he's also a friend of Rupert Murdoch, and part owner of Fox News.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-23-2010/the-parent-company-trap

Stop terrorism. Boycott Fox News! :P

Oh, the irony. The largest oil producer in the world, and and the largest buyer of US deficit bonds -- may also be a sponsor of terrorism.

[athanasios]

Shame on the Rep. Greeks who are against the mosque and their only concern is their Orthodox Church.

[Vidi]

But why call it House Cordoba? I'm still confused since that brings up only conquest and conversion in its history. It's not a good message for  "inter-faith relations."

edit: I just watched the Olbermann video (love the guy by the way) and he quotes the developer calling it "Park 51" instead of Cordoba. Good call.

Cordoba has a very interesting history behind it. While it is true that it was conquered by the Moors in 711 CE, it became a very multicultural city. It should be noted that at this time, most of Christian Europe was in disarray, with much of the technology having been lost after the fall of the Roman Empire. Only the Byzantine empire and the North African and Middle Eastern parts of the old Empire managed to keep the technology. This meant that the Muslim world was suddenly at the forefront of technological change, with most of Europe warring between themselves.

Cordoba became a very rich city. Since it was at the very forefront of education, economic progress and culture. However, it wasn't just available for Muslims. A large Jewish population set up shop in the city, and became, as one of my sources puts it, "[T]he seat of Jewish learning, scholarship and culture, gradually eclipsing the Babylonian academies of Sura and Pumbeditha.". Alongside the Jewish and Muslim population, a large Christian population also existed in the city. Generally these groups managed to get on rather well with each other, which was what lead Cordoba becoming such a rich city.

Of course, it wasn't all peace and harmony. Some restrictions where put upon the non-Muslim population, making them more like second class citizens, however, as pointed out in the BBC article: "Although these rules would now be considered completely unacceptable, they were not much of a burden by the standards of the time, and in many ways the non-Muslims of Islamic Spain (at least before 1050) were treated better than conquered peoples might have expected during that period of history.". Also, a number of historians have denied this view, and put forth that the non-Muslim populations were repressed.

Feisal Abdul Rauf, one of the funders of Park51 has said that they chose the name Cordoba House to refer to this cultural golden age, as they want Park51 to help bridge the gaps between these religions to show how they can all along, a rather noble goal. Of course, the backlash from the name forced them to rename, which personally I think is a shame.

Sources:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_1.shtml - A very good article on Cordoba's history

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Cordoba.html - A Jewish centric view

http://www.whatcordoba.com/history-cordoba.html - A nice short overview

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba,_Spain - Everyone uses Wikipedia

[Lord J]

I seem to remember hearing that Islam was actually relatively progressive at certain points in history, particularly compared to Christianity. Here is an interesting paper about Islam and the history of the United States from the perspective of a Muslim individual. In it, they differentiate (importantly) between followers of Islam the religion, and Islam as a form of government, particularly in terms of treason, drug enforcement, and sexism.

[SparrowsOfDune]

People do twist it about so.

Apart from anything else there were good Muslim Americans who died in the WTC attack too. If the mosque-site were to incorporate some sort of memorial to the WTC victims of any or no religion, it'd go a long way to amielioriate many concerns people have.

[Acriku]

And now we have an idiot in my state who is a pastor declaring a burning of a Quran book. The burning has been put on hold thankfully, but the damage is already done with anti-American rallies all over Afghanistan and possibly other dominantly Islamic countries. People are requesting that the US Government go in and stop the burning, but that raises a whole set of new issues with government and church relations. I don't think the government has any authority in this incident, but I do hope the pastor sees that he's putting America under the light of offensive maneuvers once again.

[athanasios]

The US government IS accountable for not sending that imbecile to an asylum. He is a threat to civilized society.

Or for not leaving the Muslims to lynch him.

[Dunenewt]

In internet terms, Pastor Terry Jones is doing a pretty good job of trolling!

[gurneyman]

I fail to see how this is an issue. Of course it should be allowed. It's not even right next to Ground Zero - it is in fact a couple of blocks away.

If we start banning the construction of religious buildings in the general vicinity of places where a religiously-motivated crime was committed, there are a lot of cities in Europe that will have to go without new churches.

Here here! Couldn't have said it better...

[athanasios]

Of course it is quite different here in Athens. The government wants to build a mosque on Iera Odos (=Holy Street), which is the west entrance of the city and the route of ancient religious festivals. It offers a panoramic view of the city and the Parthenon. But the Muslims demand a huge structure with minarets. A huge structure there would obscure the Parthenon and destroy the history and the image of our city as Athens lacks tall buildings. Such a mosque could be built anywhere else, but not at main entrances of the city with a panoramic view of our ancient structures. It is against our culture and against any form of aesthetics. And I would be saying the same even for any kind of structure that is out of place or proportions.I suspect every sane USA citizen would disagree with building a minaret of 300 meter in the Center of new York.

[ErasOmnius]

ath, That is a very interesting point.

[Lord J]

Although my sanity is arguable-- it is a legal term, after all-- I personally find minarets to be attractive and exotic. As a city that prides itself on being the "melting pot of cultures", I would think New York would be open to minarets. There are plenty of proponents of appreciation of diversity to make this argument, and I strongly doubt the majority of them are insane, by any but the most conservative of viewpoints. Of course... [insert obvious personal attack here].

EDIT: I just realized an interesting point of comparison: Steeples.

[ErasOmnius]

No, obviously on religious grounds there is no doubt that the mosque should be allowed; and really, the mosque should be allowed. I was saying that on artistic and historical grounds an argument could be made in Athens. The same 'artistic' argument could be made for perhaps Philadelphia, PA, which has no super-skyscrapers.

I do believe that the 'artistic' argument is a negative road to begin to go down.

[athanasios]

I like minarets but in their proper position. And it is not only about Muslim religion. I don't want to be disturbed every few hours from a guy shouting from the top of the minaret as I do not want to be disturbed by the bell of the local Church. We protested here and they use it moderately now.

[Wolf]

I mean, minarets in New York are a moot point: if you built them, no one would see them, anyway. I can see the Greeks' point of view that Athens has an ancient and unique cultural aesthetic that they are entitled to preserve (even in the US, cultural patrimony is a legally-recognized right), but, if that's the case, then I don't see why they should have a problem with Americans trying to prohibit the construction of a mosque in the US. Of course, that's actually only a hypothetical. I think Edric pointed out that it's (1) not even Ground Zero and (2) not even a mosque and (3) I sort of remember talking about this already... is someone archive-raping?!

[Edric O]

I think Edric pointed out that it's (1) not even Ground Zero and (2) not even a mosque and (3) I sort of remember talking about this already... is someone archive-raping?!

[c=#00dd00]You forgot (4) they're actually using a pre-existing building in New York and just changing the interior, not building any new structure, so it will have no effect on the city's aesthetic whatsoever.

With regard to Athens, of course the city should have the right to deny a building permit to anyone who wants to put up a structure that goes contrary to the character of a historic area. They should not be able to forbid the building of a mosque, but they should be able to demand that the mosque follows a certain architectural style.[/c]

[Wolf]

I'm not aware of what Athens' policies are... I do know, by way of contrast, that France has a minaret-ban (as opposed to a mosque-ban), which I think is justified by the same sort of cultural patrimony/historical value claims. I have no means or desire to dispute that--I'll take the French at their word. But I do know that the French take a lot of flak here in the US even for a minaret-ban... it certainly fails to generate good PR. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that, while everything I said in that first sentence may be true, it would be a lot more justifiable if it weren't so obvious that every Frenchman vastly preferred a mosque-ban. The flavor of the whole affairs leaves a sour aftertaste, if you get my meaning. So, while legally permissable, I'm not sure that minarets are all that the statute seeks to ban.

[Edric O]

[c=#00dd00]You are thinking of the wrong country. France most definitely does not have a minaret ban. Here is one in Paris:[/c]

[c=#00dd00]The country that does have a minaret ban is Switzerland. The party that introduced it claims that they are not a bunch of xenophobic bigots, which is about as convincing as when the BNP says it.[/c]

[ErasOmnius]

I sort of remember talking about this already... is someone archive-raping?!

'Raping'?

As new people join/post on the Forum, they see interesting topics, and want to give their opinion. The Forum is bursting out into the open; as new people join, and express their opinion. It is a good thing.

[Wolf]

Edric: That's the one! Thanks. Just read my last post as France = Switzerland/French = Swiss.

(Someone else is going to have to explain "archive-rape": I just can't get over "The Forum (he used capitals!) is bursting out into the open" to respond.)

[ErasOmnius]

Wolf, I am an optimist, as you know. I have the view of The Forum/the Forum/the forum/The forum being a place where a multitude of people with different viewpoints can gather to talk about various subjects.

What really is a shame is the fact that a place of Business and Commerce is being built so close to Ground Zero. I think the whole thing should be a remembrance park.

[Dante]

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/thread_necromancy

[athanasios]

What really is a shame is the fact that a place of Business and Commerce is being built so close to Ground Zero. I think the whole thing should be a remembrance park.

Well, that was what it was before. Restore things to their previous state?

[ErasOmnius]

If groups keep talking about 'Ground Zero, 'Ground Zero'; then they are talking about 9/11, and the loss of lives. So how could it just simply go back to the way it was, if the area is viewed as a type of sacred cemetery?

Business and Commerce can always re-locate anywhere, it doesn't have to be there.