Post-Mortem: A Discussion on the Afterlife

[athanasios]

... He was going to die eventually, he was human...

Wrong. He was not simply human he was a perfect human equal to Adam. So he was not going to die.

Hwi: I think you messed the groups. You can either belong to the 144000 or the great crowd. There is no third group-dead excluded.

Also the harlot represents ALL false religions not only Roman Catholics or even False Christians. Because her name is Babylon the Great. From ancient Babylon stem all false religions.

[ErasOmnius]

The Book of Revelations is NOT in chronological order.

We have to take into account the Book of Daniel, as well.

To answer your earlier post:

Revelation 17:9

The Seven Hills are the seven empires that have ruled the land of Israel while Jews have been in it.

Seven Hills that the Woman sits on - Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, The West

Eighth king is a revival of one of the previous empires, probably Roman.

Babylon is a symbol of the mercantile system, and just before the Return of the King [Jesus, not Aragorn] is a genuine giant city megalopolis as it says in Rev 17:18.

When we say it is the Vatican or Catholic Church we are in great error. The Catholic Church has made errors, as well as the Lutherans, the Orthodox, the Baptists, etc.

What's important is that even with all of the destruction going on, the people of the Earth are so bound up in the petty little boozin', druggin', sexual sins that...

Rev 9

Rev 9:20 ...The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood

[Dante]

[ErasOmnius]

Are you fixating on my quote about sexual immorality? There are hundreds of other words that I have posted, that can be talked about.

[Dante]

You've been parrotting yourself for ages. Get a new act, this one's grown stale. And if I was the slightest bit interested in rebutting or even acknowledging your lies (in this thread at least) I would have done so by now.

New idea: What if "the afterlife," which for the purposes of this argument is defined as "the purpose which mankind is to fulfil before and after death," is deliberately undefined? That is, we have free will, surely the point of it is to exercise it. In which case perhaps the whole point of sentient life is to surpass its origins by finding for itself a greater meaning.

Note that even entertaining the possibility that life has an end goal or "point" is a thought experiment on my part. I want to make that clear before anyone thinks they can be a clever bugger and turn that against me.

[athanasios]

Eighth King could be a new world power OR simply all together as mankind is heading to a single government.

[chatfsh]

The book of Revelation is inconsistent. For numerous reasons, there ought to be no other survivors save for the 144,000, because God does not intervene to prevent anyone else from suffering a painful death.

No, actually, it's not. You really haven't actually read all of Revelations, have you? See I declined to mention the part where God boils the seas  because I thought it was redundant. And the part where he subjects Earth to fully a third round of fiery bombardment.  But, let's think about it. All we really need is Revelation 8:1-7, where God burns a third of the Earth's surface. Think about it. If a third of the Earth's surface is set on fire, then a significant change would occur in the environment of the Earth. First of all, an appreciable amount of oxygen would be burned, significantly thinning the atmosphere for carbon-based life. Secondly, there would be a dramatic increase in greenhouse gases, mainly carbon and sulfur dioxide, resulting in a cataclysmic effect on the environment--literally, the rest of the planet would boil in a relatively short amount of time. Thirdly, unless God picks the most useless parts of the Earth's surface, much of the planet's food production (which is centralized) and its transportation infrastructure (which is a network) would be lost and populations that survive, by luck, would be rendered isolated from necessary resources. Try to imagine it: burning a third of the Earth's surface is enough to kill virtually all humans who are not immediately incinerated who also do not have access to self-sustaining, insulated environments.

No, it isn't. Did you honestly read what I had written and assumed that it was all that God does to the Earth in Revelation? God burns a third of the land, boils all of the seas, poisons a quarter of the species, condemns another quarter to ceaseless wars of annihilation, vaporizes a third outright and does all of this all at the same time. Yeah. There aren't going to be 2 billion survivors. That amount of damage experienced within such a short timeframe may even render Earth lifeless, much less inhabited by human beings.

You are wrong about the multitude of ethnically diverse survivors of Rev. 7:9-17 being inconsistent with the rest of Revelation.   You maintain that the calamities which will befall mankind will be sufficient to wipe out virtually all life on earth.  You say this as if you believe God is incapable of preserving those who trust in him by shielding them from the effects of the global disasters.  Do we find any type of precedent in the Biblical record demonstrating that God has preserved his people while bringing numerous plagues upon the nation in which his servants dwelt?  Does Egypt and the 10 plagues ring a bell?

In at least five of the ten plagues brought upon Egypt, God specifically caused the plagues to fall upon the Egypt while leaving the land of Goshen (where the Jews resided while in Egypt) unharmed.  This held true for following plagues:

Exodus 8:22

[Wolf]

(1) "On Casualties"

By the way, anyone who is even vaguely familiar with the Book of Revelation is aware of the 144,000 Jews.  I never even suggested that this number did not exist in the Book of Revelation.  You were the one who seemed rather confused about this topic.  First you erroneously claimed that 88,000 Jews would be saved.  Then you compounded your error by claiming that only 144,000 Jews would be saved when the very same chapter of Revelation (chapter 7) discusses a vast multitude of people being saved out of EVERY nation.

Aw. What a gracious way to acknowledge the fact that I'm the first person here ever to admit that he made a mistake and point it out himself to the board. I'm too fair with all of you. Specific numbers aside (I don't really think the arbitrary distinction between 88,000 and 144,000 matters), you totally missed my point. The marking of the 144,000 Jews is the only time God personally intercedes to prevent people from suffering a horrific death. Do you see the implication there? This is what you're talking about. I already addressed it. When you go on and on and on supposing things that aren't in the book of Revelation, like this...

I mean, this is Jesus that we

[arnoldo]

(1) "On Casualties"

Aw. What a gracious way to acknowledge the fact that I'm the first person here ever to admit that he made a mistake and point it out himself to the board. I'm too fair with all of you. Specific numbers aside (I don't really think the arbitrary distinction between 88,000 and 144,000 matters), you totally missed my point. The marking of the 144,000 Jews is the only time God personally intercedes to prevent people from suffering a horrific death. . .

That's not entirely correct, Mark 13 states the following;

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

So the personal intercession noted here is that the days are "shortened."  But your implied point is noted, i.e., the problem of evil/suffering is one of the most effective rhetorical arguments against an omni benevolent God.

[athanasios]

I don't really think the arbitrary distinction between 88,000 and 144,000 matters

It matters, and it matters a lot. Next time you quote it again make sure you have paid a visit to the Parthenon in Athens and done some measurements.

[Edric O]

Trying to describe giant skyscrapers, and nuclear explosions, and the like. A lot of it is metaphor. Obviously you're not going to see a ten-headed animal walking around the sea-shore. The wild animals are Empires of Man.

So you are saying that the Imperium of Man is headed by the Beast? That the Emperor of Mankind is the antichrist? Blasphemy! Purge the heretic!!

;D

Heh. I'm sorry, I just couldn't pass up that opportunity. I do have serious comments to make on this topic, but I will have to leave most of them for another time. For now, I will only say this: how do you know that John was trying to describe giant skyscrapers and nuclear explosions, rather than, for example, giant space ships, orbital bombardment, and ion cannons? I am fascinated by the possibility that the events of the Book of Revelation may occur in a distant, technologically advanced future.

[ErasOmnius]

I cannot really answer you at all about Revelations and it's companion Old testment book, the Book of Daniel. If I did I wold be banned permanently. To understand Revelations, one has to understand that it is written to the Jews first, so that they can understand the geo-political situation that would confront them before the return of the Son to the Earth.

How can one not understand that Israel is surrounded by nations that wish to destroy them? If a man could come along that could cause true al-beit temporary peace between Israel and its' neighbors, that man would be heralded as a type of god by mankind. The catalyst will probably be when House Iran gets the bomb -- because House Iran does not follow the rules of the Landsraad.

Revelations is also written to the Christian, because it tells us in Rev 13:7 that we are going to all be killed. Because that is the nature of true Christianity, that un-true Christians and the neo-pagans want to kill us for telling it the way it is. That somehow if we're gone, their guilt goes to.

Yes, Revelations says that everyone is by the book's time in world history is morally bankrupt, perverted, and too far gone to repent -- so yes it says that Jesus and his minions kills countless people upon His return.

But things are 'out of the box' basically now, how much worse will it be then? On our computers, we are for the first time in history, 4 clicks away from the most perverted porn ever imaginable. That genie is 'out of the box' forever, there is no going back. It hits our kids at an earlier and earlier age, and is available to millions of people as young as 10 or 11. Men, and to lesser extent women, spend hours watching porn every day, thinking that the disgusting acts that are done are 'normal'. And it's going to get worse, and worse.

Our neighbors cabinets are filled with mind-altering drugs -- prescribed by physicians. Kids are drugged to keep them in line, they are junkies by the age of 14 or 15. Women swallow them by the handful to 'cope' with the stress of the world on a daily basis. So, either we destroy ourselves, or God comes back to save the small remnant that can resist the above stuff.

[chatfsh]

Wolf, the only reason that I mentioned the 144,000 Jews again is because you implied that I was unaware of something so basic about the Book of Revelation.

Also,  you have stated that the selection of the 144,000 is ungodly because they are arbitrarily chosen with no regard to their righteousness.  Read Revelation 14:1-5 and tell me if their selection has nothing to do with their righteousness when the Bible explains that they loyally follow Christ wherever he goes and that they are blameless before God, unblemished in every way, virgins no less.  I don

[Edric O]

But things are 'out of the box' basically now, how much worse will it be then? On our computers, we are for the first time in history, 4 clicks away from the most perverted porn ever imaginable. That genie is 'out of the box' forever, there is no going back. It hits our kids at an earlier and earlier age, and is available to millions of people as young as 10 or 11. Men, and to lesser extent women, spend hours watching porn every day, thinking that the disgusting acts that are done are 'normal'. And it's going to get worse, and worse.

Our neighbors cabinets are filled with mind-altering drugs -- prescribed by physicians. Kids are drugged to keep them in line, they are junkies by the age of 14 or 15. Women swallow them by the handful to 'cope' with the stress of the world on a daily basis. So, either we destroy ourselves, or God comes back to save the small remnant that can resist the above stuff.

I fail to see how any of this makes the present time even remotely comparable in immorality to, say, the Dark Ages. Or the European conquest of the Americas. Or the first half of the 19th century in the US (remember slavery? yeah, that's worse than porn).

Also, the vast majority of the world's population at the present time doesn't have access to the internet and can't even afford drugs against life-threatening diseases. The problems you describe are the problems of a small handful of affluent Westerners. They are not the problems of the world.

[Wolf]

Also,  you have stated that the selection of the 144,000 is ungodly because they are arbitrarily chosen with no regard to their righteousness.  Read Revelation 14:1-5 and tell me if their selection has nothing to do with their righteousness when the Bible explains that they loyally follow Christ wherever he goes and that they are blameless before God, unblemished in every way, virgins no less.  I don

[athanasios]

I cannot really answer you ... If I did I wold be banned permanently.

Please get the OK from Edric O and move ahead. This is a politics and religion forum, if there is censorship here I will ban myself too. LOL! I am really interested to your interpretation of Revelation.

But things are 'out of the box' basically now, how much worse will it be then? On our computers, we are for the first time in history, 4 clicks away from the most perverted porn ever imaginable. That genie is 'out of the box' forever, there is no going back. It hits our kids at an earlier and earlier age, and is available to millions of people as young as 10 or 11. Men, and to lesser extent women, spend hours watching porn every day, thinking that the disgusting acts that are done are 'normal'. And it's going to get worse, and worse.

I agree with Edric O here. Porn is the sin of the poor but the sins of the rich and the rulers are a hundredfold more serious. How can the religious leaders dare equal one with the other? Hypocrites!

Our neighbors cabinets are filled with mind-altering drugs -- prescribed by physicians. Kids are drugged to keep them in line, they are junkies by the age of 14 or 15. Women swallow them by the handful to 'cope' with the stress of the world on a daily basis. So, either we destroy ourselves, or God comes back to save the small remnant that can resist the above stuff.

Abusing pills is one way of the powerful to keep the masses asleep. False religion, politics, sports, junk entertainment and the media are other ways. I hope you are not like those fanatics who think that pills are forbidden for christians-a moron with responsibility in a certain denomination once told one of my friends that he was considering excommunicating him because he was taking pills and that his mental illness was probably a punishment from God for a secret sin... Hope he doesn't read this, because then we will have a nice party and as we say here in Greece then even 'the motley kid will laugh'!...

[ErasOmnius]

I fail to see how any of this makes the present time even remotely comparable in immorality to, say, the Dark Ages. Or the European conquest of the Americas. Or the first half of the 19th century in the US (remember slavery? yeah, that's worse than porn).

Also, the vast majority of the world's population at the present time doesn't have access to the internet and can't even afford drugs against life-threatening diseases. The problems you describe are the problems of a small handful of affluent Westerners. They are not the problems of the world.

No, the big difference is that now we have a spreading world-wide culture that celebrates and encourages immorality--especially sexual immorality. Sexual behavior goes to the core of who we are.

Obviously, as you may have read, I think abhorrent the conquest of America and the mis-treatment of Native Americans. I laugh when people declare that America was founded as 'a Christian nation', since slavery was legal in half the beginning states.

...At the end of it all, Hwi, trying to take the book literally is itself consigned to failure, because in literal terms the book is inconsistent--as humans are. Again, this doesn't undermine God (it's not God's fault that whackos got to write his scripture), but it becomes God's fault when people try to take the book literally and then assault (in physical or intellectual terms) anyone who suggests otherwise!

Are you saying that the apostle John was a whacko, Wolf?

[chatfsh]

"... the Bible explains that they loyally follow Christ wherever he goes?" Uh, then they're not Jewish, by definition?

Wolf, you do realize that it is possible to be of Jewish ancestry and still be a Christian, right?  That would include all of Jesus

[Acriku]

Could it be possibly *gasp!* that Wolf doesn't take a literal interpretation of Noah's Flood?

[Edric O]

Wow, Wolf.  What a deeply revealing, if not disturbing, statement for a

[Wolf]

Wolf, you do realize that it is possible to be of Jewish ancestry and still be a Christian, right?  That would include all of Jesus

[arnoldo]

What Wolf said (with the exception of the "whackos" comment) is a belief shared by the vast majority of Christians. No, scratch that, it's a belief shared by all Christians, even though some won't admit it. It is simply not possible to take the Book of Revelation literally. No one thinks the antichrist will literally be a beast with multiple heads, after all.

Revelations is quite similar to the book of daniel with respect to the portrayal of a person/government which will seek to destroy certain groups of people.

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

9I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Biblical Minimalist claim this passage is not prophetic and is describing  Antiochus Epiphanes.  So the issue for them is not whether this passage should be taken literally, figuratively or allegorical; rather that it is "prophecy" written after the fact.

In addition, let's refrain from calling each other poisonous and vile, shall we? I like this thread and wouldn't want to see it end up like those other three recent ones.

There's a difference between calling the words someone writes poisonous and vile vs directing those adjectives towards the person writing those words satirically or otherwise.

[chatfsh]

In addition, let's refrain from calling each other poisonous and vile, shall we? I like this thread and wouldn't want to see it end up like those other three recent ones.

Very well, Edric.  For the sake of civil discourse, I offer my apology (even though I didn

[Wolf]

Oh, that's cheap. No, Hwi, insulting the attributes of others is equatable with insulting them, period. If that's the case, I would be allowed to go on at length about your mean spirit, aggressive ignorance, blind, animalistic instincts, limitless intellectual cowardice, and cheap, underdeveloped, sandwichboard ideas about Christianity. Hey, they're not insults to you merely to how you approach things. I'm not allowed to do that, so I don't, but unless you want me to, you're going to have to offer a little bit more humility than that. Besides, I apologize fully for my mistakes (see above re. John), are you really going to let me get away with being the better Christian? Give me a real apology for your cruelty, or if not that, your pledge to cease calling people who disagree with you false "Christians" or "the enemy that Christ warned us about," and then we'll be able to progress confidant in the integrity of this discussion. That was the really sick, truly offensive piece of your post.

[ErasOmnius]

In addition, let's refrain from calling each other poisonous and vile, shall we? I like this thread and wouldn't want to see it end up like those other three recent ones.

Those 3 threads were good discussion...

Dante, I know you're reading...

Our friend who 'came out of the closet' is now having sex with female hookers in Canada, so much for his claim to be a complete male homosexual.

The male homosexual neighbors are still proving how non-monogamous they are.

Wolf, I'd bother quoting and responding to you...but you're ignoring me -- instead you're beating up on poor Hwi, who, by the way, is doing a great job.

The 144,000. They are Jews that God has set aside to live and not die, once they become converted to the fullness of having a spiritual relationship with the Messiah Jesus.

After the neo-pagans kill off all of the true Christians under the leadership of their False Prophet gifted leader [Rev 13:7], God is going to want to punish man-kind for doing so. Fresh water turns to blood, salt water turns to blood, sky darkens. Everything starts to die. But the 144,000 are set aside, and are not killed by the plagues, or by the False Prophets' Empire.

The millions that do not die from the bowls of wrath, are killed by the returning Son and his angels in Rev 19!