Israel attacks "Free Gaza" flotilla

[Eliyyahu]

athanasios,

Just a moment, I cited those to show that origin of the Star of David has nothing to do with the OT and David. Far from me the attempts to demonize the Jews. Even one of my best friends is a Jew. Hmm, I forgot to call him to go swimming on Saturday...

You are assuming it has nothing to do with David.  Our tradition holds that a six pointed star was on David's shields, which is why in Hebrew it is not called "star of David" but Magen David (shield of David).  But I am perfectly OK with you not accepting that tradition.  Regardless of how ancient its origins in Jewish circles, it has great significance as a symbol of our survival over the last 1,000 years or so.  It is not worshipped, it is not a part of our observance, but it is significant to us as a people in its way.

But since you read them, you noticed that they also quote Jewish sources.

The only supposed Jewish source I saw in any of those links was the explanation that the Menorah has been the religious symbol of the Jews.  Perhaps you missed that I pointed out that the Menorah is on the emblem of the state of Israel.  I did not see any sane sources for the Star of David=Saturn=Satan nonsense.  As I told you earlier, Lucifer (which Christians mistakenly apply to "Satan") refers to Venus, and the Hebrew words which the Vulgate translated into Lucifer (cementing the mistake) also refer to Venus.

Regarding the flag, while I have a soft spot for ketav Ivrit, we would never be so foolish as to put God's name on something which is so frequently burned and destroyed.

[ErasOmnius]

Can you prove this from the Scriptures?

That the Son is God? 

John 1:1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.  3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

That He is permanently a Jewish man?

He was born to a Jewish family...so he had to look Jewish to blend with them, and in the village area he lived in. In fact, he looked so normal that when came into His ministry the local townsfolk would not believe.

And he hasn't changed his basic physical state.

[As a side note, people who read the 6 Dune books, really are thinkers, aren't we? I have been telling my 'thinking friends' about this Forum, and they sure to be a-joining soon.]

[Caid Ivik]

What's the problem with David's star? Ukraine has a trident in its coat of arms, a weapon of demons in every Slavic folktale, does it say anything about the country herself? Most ancient symbols have various meanings even within a single culture.

First, Judaism is not a religion, at least not strictly so.  And it is only worldwide in the sense that the Jews were exiled from their homeland across the globe, so that we have Jews whose ancestors have lived in many nations.  But Judaism does not preach conversion of the non-believers, or condemnation to hell of them, though anybody can convert.

Nor is it merely a blood thing (a Jewish father cannot pass down Jewishness).  It is a people, a nation.  Everything goes back to them being a people on a land with their own set of laws and way of life.  That they have been able to survive in exile, to remain distinct in their ways of life and adapt even while doing so, does not mean that Jews stopped yearning to be the people of Israel in the land of Israel with the Torah of Israel from the God of Israel.  This is original Zionism, even if it is not entirely the Zionism of some of the founders of Israel.

Jewish tradition, culture, and even law (though the state is not entirely according to halacha) is infused into the state of Israel and how it operates, contrary to popular belief.  No country asks whether this or that move is OK according to Jewish law, but this is a line of thinking which frequently arises in Israel. 

Regarding God telling them in the time of the Judges, remember that they already have the written and oral Torah and the Prophets, they do not need to be told over and over again how to exist as a Jewish nation.  That is already covered there.

Thanks, but I would like to go further with the second part. I understand Judaism as a religion is much more bound to the ethnicity than the universal religions. It is surely harder to secularize, ie.make the claims of legitimacy more clear to those, who don't understand or wish to accept the reasoning based on Jewish religion. On the one hand I would ask, why? From the outside point of view - from that of mine or athanasios' or, say, from Nasrallah's - it is primarily an ethnocentrist way of legitimization. Groups like Hizbullah actually made the same in reaction, they created their own way of legitimizing their moves by terms of their own culture. Turkey, in both recent change of relations with Israel and Kurdish problem, seems to follow the same pattern. I understand there is common will to do so (as in Israel, so in Turkey or southern Lebanon) and that politicians, who gained by it, would always only support it. But it seems to me to be a very dangerous trend.

On the other hand, in how far can you use Torah for determining foreign relations? International law, global market, instant communication, nuclear deterrence, and even Israeli Navy :) are things, which didn't exist in times of Solomon and changed the situation a lot. I think it is sometimes fruitful to distinguish the cultural nation from its political reflection.

[Eliyyahu]

Caid,

If I, whose parents were both Jews, had a child with a non-Jewish woman, my child would not be Jewish whatsoever on my account.  If a non-Jewish woman with totally non-Jewish parents converted according to halacha and had a child with any man, Jewish or non-Jewish, her child would be Jewish.  When someone is born a Jew or converts they are part of the Jewish people, the Jewish nation, regardless of what race or ethnicity they come from.  Just as becoming an American requires passing a certain process, so too does becoming a Jew.  I feel no obligation or need to apologize to those who have an issue with the notion of a Jewish homeland, or a Jewish homeland in Israel where the original Jewish homeland is.  We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Regarding the Torah, we would be fools to be dragging a document along all these millennia which only applies to the situations of Solomon's time.  The truth is we have always used the Torah to adapt to foreign and modern situations as they came, and we find it lacking in no way for this purpose.  And again, I am not saying that the state of Israel is fully governed by halacha, but halacha still plays a large role in modern Israel.

[athanasios]

Regarding the flag, while I have a soft spot for ketav Ivrit, we would never be so foolish as to put God's name on something which is so frequently burned and destroyed.

Now that's an excuse!

Never heard about Bibles and other literature that contained God's name burned by the thousands by the faithless?

-

Jesus is God. Satan also is the God of this wicked world. But there is only one Almighty GOD, YHWH.

All things were done THROUGH Jesus, not BY Jesus=YHWH 'USED' Jesus to create all things.

[Eliyyahu]

athanasios,

Jesus is God.

To most Christians, perhaps, but to the Jews, never.

Satan also is the God of this wicked world.

Take this for what it is worth, but I am going to try to help you understand why statements like that are not going to help you convert Jews to Christianity.

Deuteronomy 4:39 (KJV)

39. Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Genesis 24:3 (KJV

3. And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell:

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)

7. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

There is simply no space, no room left by the Hebrew Bible for a Devil/Satan figure (as envisioned in Christianity).

Satan is a Hebrew word meaning "adversary," but Christian translations of the OT tend to pick and choose when to translate it or leave it untranslated and then capitalize it as if it is a name.

But there is only one Almighty GOD, YHWH.

All things were done THROUGH Jesus, not BY Jesus=YHWH 'USED' Jesus to create all things.

I am sure this all fits and is not contradictory for you, but in Hebrew one is one, no other means no other, no Satan god of earth, no Jesus god, no other.  We are going to have to agree to disagree.  Observant Jews have no reason to trade in our own continuous chain of national transmission spanning over nearly 3,500 years for Christianity and Christianity's traditions and beliefs about us and our Hebrew Bible.  We still read, speak, and study the languages the Hebrew Bible was written in, and have never ceased, even when Hebrew stopped for many to be spoken as the language of every day business and such.  I am not telling this to you to insult you, but you should know that from our perspective there is nothing Jesus and Christianity offer us which we need and are lacking.  And the things they offer which we are lacking we have no want of.

[SandChigger]

Jewish math: 1 = 1

"Christian" (Paulian) math: 1 + 1 + 1 = 1  ::)

Between 1901 and 2008, 163 out of 750 Nobel Prize winners were Jewish.

How many were Greek?

[Caid Ivik]

"Mathematics" is a Greek word.

Caid,

If I, whose parents were both Jews, had a child with a non-Jewish woman, my child would not be Jewish whatsoever on my account.  If a non-Jewish woman with totally non-Jewish parents converted according to halacha and had a child with any man, Jewish or non-Jewish, her child would be Jewish.  When someone is born a Jew or converts they are part of the Jewish people, the Jewish nation, regardless of what race or ethnicity they come from.  Just as becoming an American requires passing a certain process, so too does becoming a Jew.  I feel no obligation or need to apologize to those who have an issue with the notion of a Jewish homeland, or a Jewish homeland in Israel where the original Jewish homeland is.  We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Regarding the Torah, we would be fools to be dragging a document along all these millennia which only applies to the situations of Solomon's time.  The truth is we have always used the Torah to adapt to foreign and modern situations as they came, and we find it lacking in no way for this purpose.  And again, I am not saying that the state of Israel is fully governed by halacha, but halacha still plays a large role in modern Israel.

I'm not sure whether you understood my question. How one attains a certain group identity, or how one is accepted by the group are things, which would be enough for a separate thread. When I say someone's dealing with Israeli policy, it doesn't mean he's trying to be a Jew. When I say the Italians didn't play good at football today, I don't claim Italian identity by it. Are you suggesting that nobody outside the Jewish community can understand the reasons of Israeli policy? Or that nobody of them is capable of making a relevant statement about it?

[SandChigger]

"Mathematics" is a Greek word.

Most technical (there's another one!) terminology (and that's a Latin-Greek hybrid!) ("Hybrid" seems to be from Latin, despite the giveaway 'y') in English is. :)

Your point? I mean, isn't there a millennial limit on how long you can rest on the laurels of your ancestors?

[athanasios]

>:( Who cares about the Nobel prizes? Maybe they will give the next peace Nobel to G. Bush! :P

Did you ever bother to search how many of those inventors stole from ancient Greek Scientists?

Do you still argue about Jewish scientists? With such Greek scientists we don't give a shit for Nobel prizes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinos_Karatheodori

Quote from above:

On December 19, 2005, Israeli officials along with Israel's ambassador to Athens, Ram Aviram, presented the Greek foreign ministry with copies of 10 letters between Albert Einstein and Constantin Carath

[Eliyyahu]

Athanasios,

I demonstrated from the OT why we feel there is no room for us to believe in a Devil/Satan "wicked" or "evil god", nor of a Jesus.  For us there is no bad good, there is no divine son god, we only have one God, and He is not made out of multiple independent co-gods.  You have not persuaded me otherwise.

And no, the Hebrew Bible does not call anything else God if you want to get to the heart of the matter.  Because while the word 'elohim' (which is not just a generic word for "god" or "God") is applied to numerous things in the Hebrew Bible including God, the Four Letter Name is applied exclusively to Him and no other.

Never is there any indication given to us in all of the 1,000+ years worth of Torah and prophets that some day we would need a Devil or a Jesus.

It's like trying to sell a cure to someone for a disease they don't have.

[SandChigger]

What's the current Jewish theological thinking on Satan in the OT, though? In Job, for example. (If you've addressed this above or in your other thread, just say so and I'll go looking. I haven't been reading every post.)

>:( Who cares about the Nobel prizes?

Well, judging from the emotional response, I'd guess the people who get the fewest of them?

(Mmm... Greek souvlaki with some little Athenian PITA! ;D )

[Eliyyahu]

SandChigger,

That is a good question.  There are two books in the Hebrew Bible where 'ha-satan' (the adversary) appears.  Three times in the book of Zechariah (in the section of the Prophets), and fourteen times in the book of Job (in the section of the Writings)

Job 1:6-12 (KJV)

6. Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan (ha-satan/the adversary) came also among them.

7. And the LORD said unto Satan (ha-satan/the adversary), Whence comest thou? Then Satan (ha-satan/the adversary) answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

8. And the LORD said unto Satan (ha-satan/the adversary), Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

9. Then Satan (ha-satan/the adversary) answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10. Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

12. And the LORD said unto Satan (ha-satan/the adversary), Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan (ha-satan/the adversary) went forth from the presence of the LORD.

The set up of the book of Job is the "sons of God" (bnei elohim/angels) with ha-satan in their midst, presenting themselves before God.  It is easy to look past this, but it is an important point.  ha-satan is one in the group of angels.  Ha-satan is described as acting as a prosecuting attorney on behalf of God, not against Him.  Ha-Satan appeals for God to allow Job to be tested, and God grants ha-satan it to him with limits.

Job 2:1-7 (KJV)

1. Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan (ha-satan/the adversary) came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

2. And the LORD said unto Satan (ha-satan/the adversary), From whence comest thou? And Satan (ha-satan/the adversary) answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

3. And the LORD said unto Satan (ha-satan/the adversary), Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

4. And Satan (ha-satan/the adversary) answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

5. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

6. And the LORD said unto Satan (ha-satan/the adversary), Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

7. So went Satan (ha-satan/the adversary) forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

In the second chapter ha-satan is described as appealing to God to allow Job to be tested further on the grounds that a man can come to terms with losses up to a point so long as they are grateful to be alive, but if his life consists of suffering, if his body were suffering, he would not have the same response.  So God allows ha-satan to proceed, but with limits.

Zechariah 3:1-4 (KJV)

1. And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan (v-ha-satan/and the adversary) standing at his right hand to resist him.

2. And the LORD said unto Satan (ha-satan/the adversary), The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan (ha-satan/the adversary); even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

3. Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

4. And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

The chapters that come before this show that this is a vision that Zechariah is receiving.  This part of his vision portrays Joshua son of Jozadak standing before the angel of the Lord, and ha-satan standing at Joshua's right hand to draw attention to and accuse him of iniquity, but ultimately being "overruled" by God.

Ha-satan is shown in these only instances it appears to have no authority to affect humans without the command or permission of God.

There are two more verses which are worth mentioning in this discussion, which are two accounts of the same thing.

2 Samuel 24:1 (KJV)

1. And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 24:1 (KJV)

1. And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

This is in line with Job and Zechariah, which portray ha-satan not as independent of God, but as an agent of God, and there is never anything in the Hebrew Bible to the contrary.  One comparison I heard once which amused me was that ha-satan is basically like Mr. Slugworth in the movie Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory (apparently the character in the book is different), in that it turned out he had been working for Wonka all along, and only on his behalf.  But again, the only references to ha-satan are in two poetic books which are not describing a physical reality.

[SandChigger]

Toda raba, Eliyyahu. :)

I should have told you that I have quite a few copies of & commentaries on the "Scriptures" about, including the Hebrew, and saved you having to quote.

So basically you believe in none of the nonsense of the Paulians, other than that Satan is some sort of angelic entity. That's cool.

[Eliyyahu]

That doesn't surprise me, SandChigger, as I have often found myself impressed by the knowledge of languages you have shown on this and other Dune boards.  Language is something which really fascinates me, especially roots and relationships between languages.  

I have to admit I often cringe posting some of these quotes from the KJV or the NIV, but even in poor translations the points I am presenting can usually still be found (I say usually, because there are exceptions where the translation is just terrible) if viewed in their own context.

So basically you believe in none of the nonsense of the Paulians, other than that Satan is some sort of angelic entity. That's cool.

Right.

[Eliyyahu]

Caid,

I'm not sure whether you understood my question.

I must not have.

How one attains a certain group identity, or how one is accepted by the group are things, which would be enough for a separate thread. When I say someone's dealing with Israeli policy, it doesn't mean he's trying to be a Jew. When I say the Italians didn't play good at football today, I don't claim Italian identity by it. Are you suggesting that nobody outside the Jewish community can understand the reasons of Israeli policy? Or that nobody of them is capable of making a relevant statement about it?

No, I am saying that despite not being totally governed according to halacha (Jewish law), Torah and halacha still play a large role in the country and in decision making.  It is the only such country in the world, because it is the only Jewish state in the world (at least until we force halacha on all of the countries we are secretly running :D ).  Anyone who tries to understand Israel without understanding the Jewish foundations of, and role of Judaism in the state will be left with an incomplete picture.

[Caid Ivik]

:)

Do the Turks or Arabs need to understand Israeli intracultural reasons for their policy towards them?

[Eliyyahu]

Do the Turks or Arabs need to understand Israeli intracultural reasons for their policy towards them?

And what would that policy be?

[Caid Ivik]

I don't know, claims for Old Jerusalem?

[Eliyyahu]

Now I am even more confused.  I interpreted your last statement to mean that you had a certain policy in mind that Israel has toward Turks and Arabs, and I am trying to understand what that policy is supposed to be?

[Caid Ivik]

Foreign policies generally aren't towards nations but particular objects: territories, companies, resources. If they are aimed towards nations, then we can also speak only about representants, like the Jordanian king or Turkish government; or NGOs (this topic is about the Free Gaza project, on which Israel answered with military). In how far is foreign policy of Israel inspired by intracultural religious reasons?

[Eliyyahu]

Caid,

I apologize, I must be lacking in the intelligence department, because I do not understand what you are asking.  I see the words, I see the question marks, but I don't understand what you are asking, and my confusion only seems to be growing with each exchange as I try to piece together how they relate.  Once again, I aplogize, I want to answer your questions.

[athanasios]

So Eliyyahu the snake that deceived Eve was not Satan? Very odd!

-

And no, the Hebrew Bible does not call anything else God if you want to get to the heart of the matter.  Because while the word 'elohim' (which is not just a generic word for "god" or "God") is applied to numerous things in the Hebrew Bible including God,...

Here you contradict yourself unless you bring us a different translation for 'el(o-ha/-him)' from the one we know.

the Four Letter Name is applied exclusively to Him and no other.

Did I state otherwise?

According to the scriptures there is only ONE YHWH. Also the scriptures condemned the usage of YHWH's name by humans.

-

Some food for thought for SandChigger and btw the English guys:

Israel:

is-ra-el

εις (=powerful) - ρα (=king) - ελ (=bright/shinny(sun)/god)

[

compare to the name of our country: Ellas (Ελ-λάς)

ελ (=bright/shinny(sun)/god) - λας(λαδ/λαός) (=land/people)

compare to: Ακγλία (=Anglia (Eng-land))

When the Greek's sailed around England due to the morphology of the coast they used the word:

αγκύλη > Latin: angulus > English: angle >> Anglia (England)

]

Greek: Ραβδί = Stick of a Shepherd.

Hebrew: Rabbi = Priest (Shepherd)

Greek: 'Αρκα = Ship-compare Argo myth.

Hebrew: Arg = Noah's Ark

Modern Greek: Βάρκα = Small boat

Pro-Greek: Μωύς = Earth/Land

Hebrew: Moses

Pro-Greek: σάμος (peek)

Greek: ελ (=bright/shinny(sun)/god)

Hebrew: Samuel

Modern Greek: Σάμος (A Greek island)

[SandChigger]

Could you possibly NOT post more or less complete bullshit like that?

(And sorry to break it to you, but the ancient name of Greece was Hellas.)

[Caid Ivik]

Caid,

I apologize, I must be lacking in the intelligence department, because I do not understand what you are asking.  I see the words, I see the question marks, but I don't understand what you are asking, and my confusion only seems to be growing with each exchange as I try to piece together how they relate.  Once again, I aplogize, I want to answer your questions.

Jewish law play a role in Israeli political decisions. Turks don't understand it, because they aren't Jewish. Israel closes ports of another country and intercepts an NGO ship with Turkish citizens. Did Jewish law affect this decision too? How should now Turkey react? How do you think one would react?