Brian Backing Away

[ErasOmnius]

Brian Herbert, and his friend Kevin; lessen the impact of Paul's sterilization of worlds during Muad'Dib's Jihad. In Winds of Dune, Jessica finds out from Paul, that the worlds are evacuated first, saving lives.

Isn't this a good thing?

[MrFlibble]

I've noticed this whole planet sterilization issue is somehow important to you. However, I've never had any impression that Frank approved of planetary scale genocide, or depicted it as a positive thing. On the contrary, it shows Paul's tragedy of the Jihad that he couldn't stop such devastation no matter how desperately he wanted it to stop.

[Dante]

No, it is not a good thing. Nothing about the violation retconning of Dune is a good thing. End of story.

[Andrew]

I havn't read the book, but I don't remember ever hearing about Paul sterilizing any planets.

I know he killed billions, but I don't remember him wiping out planets. Any quotes from original books to back it up?

[SandChigger]

    "Very good, Stil." Paul glanced at the reels in Korba's hands. Korba stood with them as though he wished he could drop them and flee. "Statistics: at a conservative estimate, I've killed sixty-one billion, sterilized ninety planets, completely demoralized five hundred others. I've wiped out the followers of forty religions which had existed since

[Andrew]

By my reading Frank Herbert never condoned the violence, he merely stated it as having happened.

He certainly didn't glory in it like the current HACKS writing the books with "DUNE" emblazoned large on their covers.

This is some stupid/weird non-issue. YAWN.

That was the quote I was looking for. Or more specifically the 'Hitler' quote.

So now BH and KJA are saying that planets were not sterilized?

[SandChigger]

So now BH and KJA are saying that planets were not sterilized?

No, only that some people ("great numbers") are being evacuated:

As if he could read her thoughts, he said, "I understand what you thought you needed to do to me, Mother. You hoped to save as many lives as possible, and that is my hope, as well. There are small deeds you aren't aware of. The recent massacre at the Lankiveil monastery involved fewer than one hundred and fifty deaths. Secretly, I arranged for forty-seven women and children to escape before the priests came in. Word has also been leaked to the rulers of the eleven target planets, and Guildships are taking away great numbers of people in an unofficial evacuation, though of course I would deny it vehemently."

...

She felt a strange sense of calm. Paul had opened her eyes with his confessions, his immense personal sacrifice. Despite her fears, she realized that he really did know what he was doing after all, that his plans encompassed a much vaster canvas than any single tragedy, that he was not an abomination who needed to be slain just to stop a current crisis. Great numbers of people were being evacuated from targeted planets, but his part in saving their lives had to remain a secret. He was sacrificing himself, and the lives that were lost were the smallest price he could find.

ErasOmnius' contention here, that Brian/KJA's slipping in this new little wrinkle in some way tempers the horrible brutality of Frank Herbert's original version and that THAT is somehow a good thing, is typical of the sort of softheaded nonsense I've come to expect from McDune fans over the last few years.

I'm with SandRider on this one: If you do not immediately react with disgust and loathing for what these two idiots are putting out under the DUNE name, you're probably too stupid to have understood the original books in the first place.

[arnoldo]

Brian Herbert, and his friend Kevin; lessen the impact of Paul's sterilization of worlds during Muad'Dib's Jihad. In Winds of Dune, Jessica finds out from Paul, that the worlds are evacuated first, saving lives.

Isn't this a good thing?

In Dune,  Paul's prescient visions of a Jihad led under an atreides banner throughout the universe is something Paul fights against.  In Dune Messiah, Paul's sense of morality is something that the conspiracy try to use against Paul . . .  so it's not surprising that Paul would want to minimize unnecessary deaths in his name.

[Dante]

True, but what he wanted mattered very little as it turned out.

[SandChigger]

More obfuscation as usual, arnoldo?  ::)

Or is it you're incapable of seeing that ErasOmnius is actually trying making a meta-level/real-world argument? This isn't <b>really</b> about what happens in-universe.

[arnoldo]

More obfuscation as usual, arnoldo?  ::)

Or is it you're incapable of seeing that ErasOmnius is actually trying making a meta-level/real-world argument? This isn't <b>really</b> about what happens in-universe.

Then in a real world argument it is a good thing to save lives.  In the duniverse it is also a good thing because it follows the trajectory of FH's writings.  IIRC, Gurney at one point in time is shocked to see that Paul cares more about the equipment then men in contrast to Duke Leto's feelings of "damn the spice, save the men." Later, Hayt is meant to help return Paul to the old Atreides morality and question his actions and of his priests. 

[MrFlibble]

IIRC, Gurney at one point in time is shocked to see that Paul cares more about the equipment then men in contrast to Duke Leto's feelings of "damn the spice, save the men." 

Eh? I only remember Paul telling the Fremen to abandon radio equipment in the face of the coming storm, and Stilgar tells him that "Fremen do not like to leave equipment behind".

[arnoldo]

Eh? I only remember Paul telling the Fremen to abandon radio equipment in the face of the coming storm, and Stilgar tells him that "Fremen do not like to leave equipment behind".

The scene is from when Paul and Gurney are first reunited;

"Too bad we couldn't have saved the carryall," Paul said.

    Gurney glanced at him, looked back to the patches of smoke and debris out on

the desert where carryall and ornithopters had been brought down by Fremen

rockets. He felt a sudden pang for the men lost there -- his men, and he said:

"Your father would've been more concerned for the men he couldn't save."

[Caid Ivik]

Hawat's attention was caught by a flash of sun on metal to the south, a

'thopter plummeting there in a power dive, wings folded flat against its sides,

its jets a golden flare against the dark silvered gray of the sky. It plunged

like an arrow toward the troop carrier which was unshielded because of the

lasgun activity around it. Straight into the carrier the diving 'thopter

plunged.

A flaming roar shook the basin. Rocks tumbled from the cliff walls all

around. A geyser of red-orange shot skyward from the sand where the carrier and

its companion 'thopters had been--everything there caught in the flame.

It was the Fremen who took off in that captured 'thopter, Hawat thought. He

deliberately sacrificed himself to get that carrier. Great Mother! What are

these Fremen?

"A reasonable exchange," said the Fremen beside Hawat. "There must've been

three hundred men in that carrier. Now, we must see to their water and make

plans to get another aircraft."

Paul seems to get inspired by Fremen.

[MrFlibble]

The scene is from when Paul and Gurney are first reunited;

Please don't forget that those smugglers were enemies to the Fremen, and if it were not for Gurney, Paul's men would have probably killed them all without a second thought.

And by the way, Frank mentions more than once throughout the books that the Atreides were honourable and just to those who were loyal to them, but they could be cruel and even cynical to those who were not.

Because the next logical thing in the line of thought that Frank's vision Paul was that of an immoral monster would be to condemn Leto II as an even more cruel, monstrous tyrant - which is, by the way, very suitable for those who claim that the Golden Path was Leto II's mistake :P

[arnoldo]

Please don't forget that those smugglers were enemies to the Fremen, and if it were not for Gurney, Paul's men would have probably killed them all without a second thought.

And by the way, Frank mentions more than once throughout the books that the Atreides were honourable and just to those who were loyal to them, but they could be cruel and even cynical to those who were not.

Agreed.  So Paul had no regrets about the sixty-one-billion killed by the Fremen in his name, right?

    "Very good, Stil." Paul glanced at the reels in Korba's hands. Korba stood with them as though he wished he could drop them and flee. "Statistics: at a conservative estimate, I've killed sixty-one billion, sterilized ninety planets, completely demoralized five hundred others. I've wiped out the followers of forty religions which had existed since

[MrFlibble]

Agreed.  So Paul had no regrets about the sixty-one-billion killed by the Fremen in his name, right?

In case I haven't expressed myself clearly enough, the Atreides harboured little compassion towards their enemies, but considered it unjust to make innocent people suffer needlessly. Obviously the latter is applicable to the Fremen Jihad, which Paul was terrified by from the very first time he had his visions. However, as the Mahdi of the Fremen, Paul had to approve of his warriors' actions or at least not to condemn them openly.

Besides, what does it matter if he had any regrets or not? He could do nothing to prevent those casualties anyway.

[ErasOmnius]

First the Universe had to be eradicated of all independence--the sterilization of planets--which led to the complete subservience to Leto II.

The Golden Path necessitated that this hierarchy then be destroyed so human-kind could Scatter, and be completely independent and free. This would lead to innovation and diversity.

Besides being a 'cash cow', it seems that Brian Herbert and his friend, have re-written the Golden Path. Besides making a lot of money off of his fathers' universe, the younger Herbert has pulled back from this premise.

Is Brian embarassed that his father seemed to say in Messiahthat sterilizing worlds was a necessity for the Golden Path, and has Paul evacuate the planets before-hand in Winds.

In Sandworms humanity and machines have it both ways, Duncan is an all-powerful being -- who encourages invention and thought.

[Caid Ivik]

This comparison reminds me of the zeroth law of robotics from Asimov. In Robots and Empire (1985) he lets the machines take over human destiny and lead it through his own vision of a "golden path"; 20 years later, the I, Robot movie (after Matrix & co.) shows this idea as something abhorring and let's the technophobe hero rather sabotage the most advanced machine ever built by it than to reap the fruits of work of generations.

Like that, Brian and KJA are also children of their era: Frank had no problems with showing Paul and Leto as in some aspect cynical wielders of immense power, but virtually controlled by their haunting visions (Paul being terrified by them, first trying to limit them, then to escape from responsibility; Leto, more "nietzschean" in this aspect, trying to follow the "path" these visions show with perfection). I don't know the details of how was the world in 80s...but nowadays, an idea of fate, of some ultimate weakness of humans, isn't a popular one. Heroes are shown as strong individuals instead. That seems to me to be a reason why even Paul is showed by Brian as some kind of morally integrated master of the situation.

But this doesn't change the fact their books are terrible anyway  ::)