If Feyd had killed Paul...

[Dunenewt]

I know this is a big 'IF', but if Feyd had killed Paul, what would have happened at that point, and afterwards?  Bearing in mind Fenring, Stilgar, Gurney, and several others were all in this chamber, and all capable fighters. 

[MrFlibble]

I think the Fremen would probably have slaughtered Feyd, the Emperor and his forces, and started the Jihad with Paul's martyr image on their banner. Someone like Stilgar or Gurney would have taken the role of the leader. I have no idea if they'd negotiate with the Guild the way Paul did, or have to fight off the Landsraad forces that had gathered over Arrakis, but I guess sooner or later, the Guild would cooperate.

[Dunenewt]

I don't know...the loss of Paul would be a major blow.  I think its possible Hasimir would have killed Feyd, then, along with Shaddam, negotiated their way out the situation.  But the Fremen certainly had a huge numerical advantage.

[MrFlibble]

I kinda doubt the Fremen would negotiate with those who killed their Messiah. I bet no one of the Emperor's entourage would leave Arrakis alive.

[Dunenewt]

But how would they react, when they see their Messiah being killed?  They'd be stunned, maybe disbelief would be their first reaction, rather than anger, which would allow Shaddam time to escape?

[MrFlibble]

Somehow I can't imagine the battle-hardened Fedaykin being stunned or shocked. It'd rather be like, "They killed Muad'Dib! - You bastards! Ya hya chouhada!"

[Dunenewt]

And then what?  Would Gurney or Stilgar launch anything like the Jihad that Paul did?  Would Stilgar even want to leave Arrakis?  Would Gurney, not being a noble man, look to one of the Atreides' allies to become Emperor?

[Mahdi]

Impossible for two reasons - the outcome of the fight was always known.  The true climactic battle was Fenring Vs. Shaddam Vs. Paul - Fenring was the only one who could have killed Paul, but he chose not to.  Secondly, it's a work of fiction, so "what ifs" cannot be - everything that happened was supposed to happen and couldn't have happened in any other way.

Ignoring the impossibility of it all, the Jihad still would have occurred but would have been even more brutal.  Paul was not the reason behind the Jihad:  Paul was the excuse for the Jihad.  The moment he killed Jamis nothing short of the simultaneous death of everyone in Cave of Birds that night could have prevent the Jihad.  It was said so quite specifically.  Paul was the excuse for it, and did all he could to limit it's excesses, but that was all

People always assume Paul was the one in control.  He wasn't.  He was a tool, nothing more.  Leto II was the one who had a choice.

[nampigai]

Mahdi nails it - if Paul could he would have prevented the Jihad.

[Dunenewt]

But at what point did he lose control over it?  He was still the one directing it, and without him, would they have had someone with the leadership qualities to pull it off?  Although Paul did not agree with it, at the end of Dune he was still the one pulling all the strings.

[Mahdi]

What point did he lose control?  He never had control to begin with.  Paul was a figurehead for the unconscious, primal rebellion against the stagnation of human genes.  This is said over and over again.

As for the exact moment it became unstoppable, It is very clearly stated after the killing of Jamis that short of everyone that night in the Cave of Birds being killed the Jihad was inevitable.  If even one person live to tell the tale Paul would be martyred and the Jihad would follow his ghost. 

Paul "pulled the strings" in that, yes, he was the one in titular command at the end of the novel and had his powers of prescience but he could do nothing to stop the coming war.  All he could do was try and curb the worst of the brutality. 

[Dunenewt]

But without his leadership, with him being an Atreides figurehead, surely a lot more Houses would have stood against the Jihad?

[Dante]

Would that have made a difference?

[Dunenewt]

Billions more deaths?

[Dante]

So not really.

[Dunenewt]

"The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic."

[Dante]

Actually I meant in a much more literal sense. Would a billion people have changed the Golden Path, altered Rakis, changed the course of the Honoured Matres? No. The Tyrant's rule would have ironed out any possible deviations, regardless of what they were.

[Dunenewt]

Possibly.  If Paul wasn't there to stop the worst atrocities, perhaps they would have gone after the Bene Tleilax, and the Ixians, and so forth.

[Dante]

Given that the Ixians et al survived the jihad, one suspects that they opted for diplomacy/surrender over resistance anyway.

[Dunenewt]

Would the Jihadists (what's the word for that?) have accepted diplomacy?  Perhaps humanity would have been irreparably damaged.

[Dante]

Of course on reflection, no Paul would mean no Leto either. That would have had a greater effect than the jihad, no matter what form the latter took.

[Dunenewt]

Ah yes, I forgot about that one!  The way I see it, Paul could not stop the Jihad, he could only guide it, and Leto II could only guide humanity, he could not control it, although he was more successful that his father.

[Dante]

Well, just because there was no Leto doesn't mean there would be no Kwisatz Haderach. With some prompting from Jessica, the Bene Gesserit might have been able to do something. Maybe Alia would have taken the reins. I'm inclined to side with Mahdi on this one, it's not possible to have gone any other way.

[Andrew]

Couldn't the collective houses and guild have invaded Dune? Wipe out all inhabitants?

Or were they needed to control worms and get spice? I suppose Paul / Fremen could have severely disrupt supply or somehow kill worms.

Also if Paul died, and no Leto II wouldn't humanity continue to stagnate and eventually die off (according to Leto II his harsh ruling was necessary for scattering)?

Or would there eventually be another Krazilik to continue with what Paul/Leto II should have accomplished?

I really need to read the books again.

[Dunenewt]

Maybe we should all read the original at the same time?  Some kind of reading group?