Has anyone bought Winds of Dune yet?

[Khan]

Is 'End' a word they are familiar with?

[SandChigger]

I hated the Jongleur Performing Group. Terrible. I am not sure what Kevin was trying to do.

I don't think he knew WTF he was doing, either.

But it has occurred to me that there was something over the last year or two, that he blahgged or Tw@tted, about him & Rebecca seeing some performing troupe somewhere ... maybe Las Vegas? And I'm thinking that's where the idiotic idea for this Jongleur escapade came from.

I can live with the tornadoes, and the psychic guilt.

This statement just proves how little you (along with KJA) actually understand the Duniverse that Frank Herbert created. There is limited "T-P" (telepathy) but no mention whatsoever by FH of "T-K" (telekinesis). None. Telekinesis entered with KJA and his Star Wars misconception of what Dune is about.

Other than during the Sharing in extremis, the Bene Gesserit do not practice telepathy nor perform other psychic tricks. That is another KJA misconception. Why would you, familiar with Dune for decades, accept such a cheap addition?

Jessica murdering the townspeople of Caladan. I like that! She is part Harkonnen, after all.

An awful, gratuitous bit of stupidity. The entire "renaming of Caladan" arc was stupid. I REALLY would like for someone to ask KJA what infinitely recessed corner of his colon he pulled "Chisra Sala Muad'Dib" out of. <i>Chisra Sala Muad'Dib, which, in the language of the desert, means the Glorious Origin of Muad'Dib.</i> The HELL it does. The Fremen spoke Arabic, and THAT is not Arabic. And that really pisses me off, because Frank Herbert took the time and made the effort to research language and culture and use it in his work. He didn't just make up the Fremen language, or pull cool sounding words out of his backside.

Stupid. Unnecessary. Ultimately adds NOTHING to the story. Tells us NOTHING about Jessica we don't already know or that FH didn't show us later in Children.

But once again you show the level you're really working on: it wouldn't have been her being "part Harkonnen" that rendered Jessica capable of such action, but that she had BECOME A FREMEN on Arrakis.

I thought the part after Muad'Dib's death was good literature.

Considering the source, an appraisal of zero value.

Sandchigger, was there any part you liked?

The book has no value other than to demonstrate yet again how bad a writer KJA really is and how little he gets Dune. In that sense and that alone, I loved every bit of it. :)

[Dante]

He was Human, as evidenced by his death.

I think that may be one of my favourite lines now.

Wasn't it something about his pure and unquestioning loyalty to the Atreides?

Could well be. But my understanding was that he also provided a genetic benefit by way of 'original' genes, that is a planned injection of genetic material that would be free of Leto's tampering. Since Leto's empire was not only socially but genetically stagnent, it would need the occasional outside addition in order to maintain heterosis. Obviously this would come from more than just Duncan. I think at some point it's mentioned that travel between planets was strictly controlled. There may also have been a suggestion - I forget if it's in the books or a theory by fans - that this control was to allow Leto to set up isolated populations, crossing them where and when he saw fit. In effect this would be like the Bene Gesserit, but unlike the BG, who had several lines in a mostly muddled population, Leto controlled everything.

Further, in biological terms, mating an individual with an ancestor (usually a parent but it applies to further relatives as well) is known as backcrossing, and it's a recognised technique for isolating desirable traits and fixing them in a population.

Also regarding Scytale. I've said this before, but Scytale is a non-issue. The Tleilaxu were a genetically stratified people, they were masters of biological science. In The Eyes of Heisenberg Frank Herbert wrote about genetic surgery, a term he used to describe genetic modification. And the thing is, we can do that already. What people forget is that face dancers were not artificial creations like machines, they were modified humans. And what can be modified once can be turned back again. The Tleilaxu made chairdogs and Heretics gave us Futars, cat people! How is the thought of switching from one genetic caste to another so difficult for people when cat-men are around?

And now that I've been ridiculously bio-centric, as per usual, I'll slink away to see what comes next.

[ErasOmnius]

I think that the concern with Scytale is that perhaps Frank forgot that he was a Face Dancer in Messiah, and accidentally made him a Master in Heretics. What that would prove is that Frank is indeed human, and someone who could have been wrong -- and that the publishers did not catch it either, or they just let it go, considering he had sold millions of books.

It's not like Dan from Caladan, where people love shortening names.

[Dante]

My point is that while the Dune books do have mistakes, Scytale is not one of them. It suggests to me that people either want to find mistakes or willfully ignore the logical explanation. It's a bit annoying.

[Andrew]

Is it not possible for scytale between messiah and heretics to become a master? Maybe he is no longer a facedancer, because his memories were put into a non face dancer body?

I havn't read recently, but I don't think scytale is in the exact same body as he was in messiah (he would have died, as in messiah several times), that would be impossible. Do tleilaxu resurrect face dancers often? The facedancers on Rakis(? heretics), genuinely thought they were rakis priests, same could have happened that scytale was brought back, and eventually moved up the ranks to master.

[Dunenewt]

My own theory is, that he had a 'genetic' promotion, due to the fact he had first had contact with Paul.

[Dante]

It's very simple. The Tleilaxu obtained some cells from the face dancer Scytale and made a ghola with their newly-found technique of restoring original memories. Sometime in the next few thousand years, perhaps in the very first ghola, perhaps the very last, the embryonic Scytale's genetic code was modified through use of enzymes and the like. Yes, we can do this, there is no reason to assume that the Tleilaxu could not. And thus the face dancer became a master.

Heck, it doesn't even need to be that complicated, they could just have removed the original mental conditioning and made him a new body. You want problems, look at the moons, but not at Scytale.

[SandChigger]

My point is that while the Dune books do have mistakes, Scytale is not one of them. It suggests to me that people either want to find mistakes or willfully ignore the logical explanation. It's a bit annoying.

Quite.

"The originals contain errors, too!" is one of KJA's favorite whiny teengirl defenses of the mistakes & intentional inconsistencies in McDune. :)

I think that the concern with Scytale is that perhaps Frank forgot that he was a Face Dancer in Messiah, and accidentally made him a Master in Heretics. What that would prove is that Frank is indeed human, and someone who could have been wrong -- and that the publishers did not catch it either, or they just let it go, considering he had sold millions of books.

Yeah, Frank forgot something like that. Because he was a hack who never went back and reread his own works or did any kind of research before going hiking in the woods with a recorder. Yeah, that's convincing.  ::)

Farok's magic arm is a mistake (by both FH & the editors). The Shaddam & Fenring bio dates may be errors. There are plenty of others. But things like the differences in the Navigators/Guildsmen in Dune and in the later books, changes in space-folding travel, Other Memory and the gholas, and this Scytale thing, they seem like something else to me.

How about, instead, considering the more plausible explanation that in the twenty years he spent working on the books, FH continued to develop various concepts and characters and didn't or couldn't go back and change the earlier books to make everything consistent. (And no, this "development over time" idea does not get The Hack off the hook, seeing how he's squirted out ten pulps in as many years.)

It's not like Dan from Caladan, where people love shortening names.

Another irrelevant observation. Shukran.

[MrFlibble]

I think that the concern with Scytale is that perhaps Frank forgot that he was a Face Dancer in Messiah, and accidentally made him a Master in Heretics. What that would prove is that Frank is indeed human, and someone who could have been wrong -- and that the publishers did not catch it either, or they just let it go, considering he had sold millions of books.

You're talking about "genetic trust" applied to BH and KJA, yet at the same time you deny Frank trust in his ability to create consistent plotlines? Sounds like doublethink to me.

[SandChigger]

The McDune fan must, by nature, be a master of doublethink and rationalization.

Otherwise how could they ignore the inconsistencies? :)

[ErasOmnius]

You're talking about "genetic trust" applied to BH and KJA, yet at the same time you deny Frank trust in his ability to create consistent plotlines? Sounds like doublethink to me.

Do you think that's fair? Do you think that was my intention? To say the THE Frank herbert could not create a consistent plot-line.

Heretics is my favorite book of the 16 Dune books.

All I said was the Frank made a mistake with Scytale's rank, didn't catch it -- and it's no big deal.

As I liven things up a bit here, I simply ask for fairness.

[ErasOmnius]

Quite.

"The originals contain errors, too!" is one of KJA's favorite whiny teengirl defenses of the mistakes & intentional inconsistencies in McDune. :)

Yeah, Frank forgot something like that. Because he was a hack who never went back and reread his own works or did any kind of research before going hiking in the woods with a recorder. Yeah, that's convincing.  ::)

Farok's magic arm is a mistake (by both FH & the editors). The Shaddam & Fenring bio dates may be errors. There are plenty of others. But things like the differences in the Navigators/Guildsmen in Dune and in the later books, changes in space-folding travel, Other Memory and the gholas, and this Scytale thing, they seem like something else to me.

How about, instead, considering the more plausible explanation that in the twenty years he spent working on the books, FH continued to develop various concepts and characters and didn't or couldn't go back and change the earlier books to make everything consistent. (And no, this "development over time" idea does not get The Hack off the hook, seeing how he's squirted out ten pulps in as many years.)

Another irrelevant observation. Shukran.

Easy, Sandchigger. Remember, it's the Jacarutu who are the cast out.

Anyway, I'm just trying to say that Frank made mistakes. No biggee.

The Golden Path. One of the my favorite lines in "Hunters of Dune" is when Murbella says that Leto was wrong about the Golden Path, that uniting humanity is better!

Gutsy, Brian, gutsy. Turning your father's main premise upside down!

[SandChigger]

Do you think that's fair? Do you think that was my intention? To say the THE Frank herbert could not create a consistent plot-line.

Heretics is my favorite book of the 16 Dune books.

There are only SIX Dune books. And one book of FH-approved Dune fan fiction.

All I said was the Frank made a mistake with Scytale's rank, didn't catch it -- and it's no big deal.

And all we're saying is that FH making a mistake in this case is not exactly plausible.

As I liven things up a bit here, I simply ask for fairness.

You expect fairness when you try to introduce bogus concepts like "genetic trust"? Right.

Easy, Sandchigger. Remember, it's the Jacarutu who are the cast out.

I'm sorry? You have a point to make?

Anyway, I'm just trying to say that Frank made mistakes. No biggee.

Answered. Move on.

The Golden Path. One of the my favorite lines in "Hunters of Dune" is when Murbella says that Leto was wrong about the Golden Path, that uniting humanity is better!

Gutsy, Brian, gutsy. Turning your father's main premise upside down!

At least give credit where credit is due: that probably is entirely KJA's doing.

Again, this just shows that your understanding of the originals is as crap as KJA's and BH's. And that you haven't really thought through what happens in the McDune. Uniting humanity is better? In what sense?

And how do the events in Hunters & Sandworms bear that out? Murbella and her forces are left hanging in space in dead and weaponless ships. It's Norma the Magic Midget Beauty Queen & Erasmus the "Independent Robot" With A Velour Fetish who come to the rescue in repeated dei-ex-machina. Even "Ultra Kwizzy Hoodah" Duncan doesn't do squat until the other two have cleared the way for him. United humanity meant zilch.

Seriously, THIS is the best you can do?  ::)

Come on, froth and gush, "Oooooh BoBo, how GUTSY!" for us some more.  ;)

Edit: Btw, you DO know that Brian Herbert is a technophobe who purportedly never uses email or views the Internet, right? That all your congratulatory virtual backslapping is rather lost on him?  :D

[Dante]

Eh, I've said what I needed to say. Frank made mistakes, but they pale into insignificance beside the grossly deformed abominations spewed forth in the name of milking his cash cow. If I rewrote Dracula to be more like Twilight it might also be considered "gutsy" I suppose.

One thing I do like about the prequels: they give me the opportunity to use lots of adjectives when describing them.

[MrFlibble]

Do you think that's fair? Do you think that was my intention? To say the THE Frank herbert could not create a consistent plot-line.

All I said was the Frank made a mistake with Scytale's rank, didn't catch it -- and it's no big deal.

I ask again, what is your proof that this is a mistake and not an intended change? You see an error where there may be none, so I regard this as a lack of trust.

BTW, regarding Frank's mistakes, what would say about this:

Let there be no doubt that I am the assemblage of our ancestors, the arena in which they exercise my moments. They are my cells and I am their body. This is the favrashi of which I speak, the soul, the collective unconscious, the source of archetypes, the repository of all trauma and joy. I am the choice of their awakening. My samhadi is their samhadi. Their experiences are mine! Their knowledge distilled is mfr inheritance. Those billions are my one.

Do you think those are typos, a mistake on the editor's or the publisher's part, or something made with an intent?

EDIT: We have discussed Scytale some time ago here on the forum:

http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?topic=20825.0

[ErasOmnius]

I ask again, what is your proof that this is a mistake and not an intended change? You see an error where there may be none, so I regard this as a lack of trust.

BTW, regarding Frank's mistakes, what would say about this:Do you think those are typos, a mistake on the editor's or the publisher's part, or something made with an intent?

EDIT: We have discussed Scytale some time ago here on the forum:

http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?topic=20825.0

I think that is a great passage that Frank Herbert wrote, and I see nothing wrong with it. Frank Herbert was a great writer. That quote is almost an emotional explosion, and sums up the passage well. I just don't think that his son deserves the punishment some people heap upon him.

[MrFlibble]

I think that is a great passage that Frank Herbert wrote, and I see nothing wrong with it. Frank Herbert was a great writer. That quote is almost an emotional explosion, and sums up the passage well.

I was talking about the words favrashi and samhadi, which are obvious misspellings of fravashi and samadhi respectively.

[SandChigger]

I just don't think that his son deserves the punishment some people heap upon him.

You're quite right. For selling out his father's legacy and bringing in an out-freyn hack to help in the raping of it, he deserves MUCH MUCH WORSE. <img src="http://www.hairyticksofdune.net/extimgs/buggywhite.gif" />

[ErasOmnius]

Yeah, I'm glad Brian and Kevin are taking a year off to release "Throne". "Winds" was vastly inferior to "Paul of Dune".

[SandChigger]

Why be glad? I mean, it's not like they're spending the time on the writing, taking it slower and putting more into it, or like they're doing any fact checking to rule out MORE inconsistencies, etc.

The Maker (Baraka fi as-Sani!) only knows WTF Neo-Luddite/technophobe recluse Brian Herbert is doing at present, but KJA is currently farting around the Mediterranean with wifey 'Becca and Mom & Dad (visits Hagia Sophia in Istanbul and the biggest attraction is the toilets?! WTF?!), juggling three or fourteen "writing" projects as he goes, like a mink hopped up on speed & viagra having its way with a chihuahua. You KNOW he's not giving <i>The Thrown (Up) of Dune</i> a second thought right now. They're ... HE's going to write [read: dictahike, with the accent on DIC] the next five or six books the same way he has the last ten:

Sometime around July or August of next year (2010) KJA will announce that he and The Other Guy have started writing the first drafts of their <i>Thrown</i> chapters (probably about 60 or 70 each, to start with). KJA, the spunky little "early finisher" that he is, will have completed his within a month or so. (Let's watch to see if they've made up by then from their little falling out over the WoD tour this past summer! It'll show in how many comments KJA makes about Brian "still writing" or "not finished yet". Note that I do NOT take this as evidence that Brian is actually doing anything besides maybe reading through and commenting on KJA's crap.)

Then there'll be the usual six-to-nine-months of mouth-motions about exchanging and correcting each others drafts four or five or ten times, and here's the cover illustration (Will Stephen Youll be redeamed or has he been reamed forever?) and my test-readers blah blah blah and come August or September [edit: <b>2011</b>] there'll be a lovely new steaming hot turd taco (crap in a wrapper by any other name) on the bookshelves, waiting for all the fanboys to devour.

Yeah, this year between is going to mean A LOT.  ::)

But I'M glad to see that you can admit that WoD was inferior even to PoD. Maybe there's hope for you yet! ;D

[Guest Abnorie09]

As above, there is a sale on and I want to buy the Freaks and Geeks dvd boxset.

Has anyone had experience with buying from this site??

[Dunenewt]

Ummm...spam?

[Wolf]

There's been a lot of these lately--unless this is the same one from the Red Alert thread? And I think there was a guy (bot?) posting in one of the Emperor mods threads, completely off-topic, also asking to buy/sell something. I have absolutely no political capital or pull here whatsoever, but my vote is for "nuke".

[Dunenewt]

I can't do anything like that either, my power is limited to one board, but I agree.