Paul of Dune review

[Mahdi]

ErasAmnius hasn't done anything to warrent a moderator checking up on him.  I don't agree with him, but I'm glad he's posting as the discussion is giving me an interesting read.

[Ampoliros]

I think we are placing too much emphasis on the quote from Leto saying that this is the first time Paul has been off-world. The main text of the critical years of "Dune" have not been altered, [10,191 to 10,193].

You know what you are right!

I think we're putting too much emphasis on Paul being born on Caladan, lets change it!

I think we're putting too much emphasis on Worms being a desert creature, lets change it!

I think we're putting too much emphasis on the abilities humans can evolve if they change to think long-term, lets change it!

I think we're putting too much emphasis on what Frank said and what he meant, lets change it!

I think we're putting too much emphasis on Priests of Dur being Leto II worshipers from the Scattering, lets change it!

I think we're putting too much emphasis on the History of Dune being an important metaphor for understanding the last 2 books, lets change it!

I think we're putting too much emphasis on consistency and plots within plots, lets do something really brave: PLOTS WITHOUT PLOTS!

I think we're putting too much emphasis on consistency and plots within plots, lets do something really brave: PLOTS WITHOUT PLOTS!

I think we're putting too much emphasis on literary worth, lets change it!

I think we're putting too much emphasis on Duncan Idaho playing the role of the "visitor (the character the audience will identify with)" in Utopian literature, lets change it!

I think we're putting too much emphasis on asking the audience to think for itself, lets change it!

Nice try Kev.

[MrFlibble]

Duncan Idaho playing the role of the "visitor (the character the audience will identify with)" in Utopian literature

That's something I didn't think about. Thanks :)

[SandChigger]

;D (snort)

ErasAmnius hasn't done anything to warrent a moderator checking up on him.

Nor did I say that he had. But something he posted reminded me of things SandRider has posted elsewhere in the past and it would be just like him to create a sockpuppet to stir things up. I wasn't asking for anyone to reveal his IP address or take action against him. I didn't realize some so simple took a federal court order here. ::)

Either way, SandRider has said over on T(A)U that he isn't ErasOmnius.

[Mahdi]

Nor did I say that he had. But something he posted reminded me of things SandRider has posted elsewhere in the past and it would be just like him to create a sockpuppet to stir things up. I wasn't asking for anyone to reveal his IP address or take action against him.  I didn't realize some so simple took a federal court order here. ::)

Maybe simple, but pointless.  Why would we bother?  Because someone on a message board suspects that someone else on a message board might be the same person as another person on a messageboard?  All because they share common ideas? 

You asked a moderator to check him out.  I replied saying no and provided my reason.  Additionally, you now have your answer from a different source. 

As for stirring things up, Eras0mnius wasn't being particularily argumentative until you started baiting him.

How's about we get back to discussing the book now?

[SandChigger]

Actually, it wasn't pointless at the time. SandRider and this person do not "share common ideas". They're diametrically opposed, as a matter of fact. I wrote that ErasOmnius has posted something here reminiscent of something posted elsewhere by SandRider. (The part about having discussed the books back in the 70s & 80s.) So the point of asking if the two share an IP address is this: if it's just SandRider taking the piss, there's no sense in taking him seriously.

Now, which book shall we return to, the one mentioned in the thread title, or one of those on ErasOmnius's overflowing and steaming platter? ;)

[MrFlibble]

I think that Frank writing "Dune" allowing the Bene Gesserit to simply allow Paul to live 15 years without trying to kidnap him, or simply killing him--may have been a stretch on Frank's part.

Why would they bother killing him? The BG did not expect him to become what he became. He could be the KH they sought, and if he failed that meant he'd either die or turn out to be "one of the might-have-beens, an almost Kwisatz Haderach, crippled by a flaw in the genetic pattern", like Count Fenring, who sure did not pose any real threat to the Sisterhood's plans.

By the way, when re-reading GEoD, I stumbled upon this interesting quote:

"Throughout our history," Leto said, "the most potent use of words has been to round out some transcendental event, giving that event a place in the accepted chronicles, explaining the event in such a way that ever afterward we can use those words and say: "This is what it meant."

Moneo felt beaten down by these words, terrified by unspoken things they might make him think.

"That's how events get lost in history," Leto said.

[ErasOmnius]

Maybe simple, but pointless.  Why would we bother?  Because someone on a message board suspects that someone else on a message board might be the same person as another person on a messageboard?  All because they share common ideas? 

You asked a moderator to check him out.  I replied saying no and provided my reason.  Additionally, you now have your answer from a different source. 

As for stirring things up, Eras0mnius wasn't being particularily argumentative until you started baiting him.

How's about we get back to discussing the book now?

Thank You. You are a Good Moderator.

My whole response is this. During the 1970s and 1980s people looked at "Dune" novels with a critical eye, and that's always a good thing.

I was just as saddened as everybody else when Mr Herbert died in 1986...he seemed so young to die.

But since then, the TOR machine, and the Internet sites, have venerated the Original 6...especially since the style of Brian and Kevin is no-where near as interesting as Frank's style.

Frank's style is fantastic!

But many of the questions that were raised 30 years ago by myself and others were swept under the rug ... until Expanded Dune came out. It seems to me...the long term reader... that Brian and Kevin are trying to address some of the obvious concerns.

Do we really want our hero sterilizing 11 planets?

Can a Scattering event, and the subsequent Return really occur in 1500 years?

Other, Etc.

No, I am not SandRider.

[MrFlibble]

But many of the questions that were raised 30 years ago by myself and others were swept under the rug ... until Expanded Dune came out. It seems to me...the long term reader... that Brian and Kevin are trying to address some of the obvious concerns.

Do we really want our hero sterilizing 11 planets?

Can a Scattering event, and the subsequent Return really occur in 1500 years?

Other, Etc.

It seems to me that Frank doesn't really prompt this question about the time span in which the Scattering occurs, he just says that it happened. I'd venture it is generally not a very relevant issue for him to address. Besides, I don't remember any figures mentioned in the books from which it could be strictly determined how realistic the population growth and technological development in the Scattering were. Moreover, I believe scientific realism is not the primary concern in the hexalogy at all.

[SandChigger]

My whole response is this. During the 1970s and 1980s people looked at "Dune" novels with a critical eye, and that's always a good thing.

Some people still do. You obviously just haven't been paying attention.

It seems to me...the long term reader... that Brian and Kevin are trying to address some of the obvious concerns.

Well, I suppose that is a possible interpretation, since you've managed to light upon it. Pity they have proven unable to address the original "concerns" without introducing new, unnecessary ones.

Do we really want our hero sterilizing 11 planets?

You mean sterilizing ninety planets, right? And demoralizing 500 more? (Or did you mean the crap PoD fan fiction?)

Can a Scattering event, and the subsequent Return really occur in 1500 years?

Could a single family rule a volume of space like the Imperium for 10,000 years? Could any family even survive that long, let alone there be two others engaged in a blood feud for the entire time? Etc. Etc. Etc.

I see no answers to these "concerns" offered by your heroes.

No, I am not SandRider.

Obviously not. <i>Memory should bring wisdom but it does not.  It is how we order the memory and where we apply our knowledge.</i> :)

[ErasOmnius]

Sterilized 11, 13, 90? For gods sake? What about just 1?

Do we really want to have a hero who sterilizes planets, and its' a good thing?

Do you think that you would want your father writing about the future of mankind, and how he "has" to sterilize planets?

Or, do you think that Brian should have published his father's like the incohorent babble that is 1980's "Unfinished Tales", published by Christopher Tolkien?

[MrFlibble]

Do we really want to have a hero who sterilizes planets, and its' a good thing?

Do you think that you would want your father writing about the future of mankind, and how he "has" to sterilize planets?

The ultimate fallibility of "heroes" is one of Frank's themes throughout the Dune books. Don't you remember that aphorism of Lord Acton's FH quotes so often?

If there is any presumption, it is the other way, against the holders of power, increasing as the power increases. Historic responsibility has to make up for the want of legal responsibility. Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority: still more when you superadd the tendency or certainty of corruption by full authority. There is no worse heresy than the fact that the office sanctifies the holder of it.

Or, do you think that Brian should have published his father's like the incohorent babble that is 1980's "Unfinished Tales", published by Christopher Tolkien?

Unfortunately, I haven't read those (I'm not a Tolkien fan, anyway), but I'm sure it's a good idea, and an established practice as well, to publish unaltered drafts and incomplete works of a writer as a part of his/her legacy.

[Mahdi]

Sterilized 11, 13, 90? For gods sake? What about just 1?

Do we really want to have a hero who sterilizes planets, and its' a good thing?

Do you think that you would want your father writing about the future of mankind, and how he "has" to sterilize planets?

Or, do you think that Brian should have published his father's like the incohorent babble that is 1980's "Unfinished Tales", published by Christopher Tolkien?

Um... how long has it been since you read Messiah?  Or Dune, for that matter?  The evil of the Jihad is one of the main themes.  Of how Paul wanted to stop it but couldn't.  From the moment he killed Jamis the path was set and absolutely nothing could be done.  His self-hatred in Messiah for being responsible for all the deaths, his comparing himself (unfavourably) to Hitler and ordering Stilgar to do the same....  Messiah is a Greek/Shakesperean tragedy, not sci-fi.  Paul is a tragic character, not a hero.  A boy trapped in a role he never wanted or sought.  That's one of the reasons I love the Messiah portion of the CoD miniseries and why I don't think anyone could redo that book for film better.  Yaitanes and Newman understood the role.  They knew who Paul was.

Most of our hero's in film, literature, TV, and especially in the sci-fi genre, are unrepentant murderers.  Paul is not.  He feels every death but there is absolutely nothing he can do about it.  He has a slight control over the winds, he directs the Jihad as much as possible to spare as many as possible, but he never really has control over it.  

Form your post it would seem you would prefer he be a typical sci-fi hero.  "Let's blow up this giant space station and kill millions of people, and yell "wahoo" and that's that."

That is one of the reasons Franks novels are better than BH and KJA's.  He understood that real characters arn't so simple.  They arn't one dimensional zap zap the bad guy is dead and I got the girl "people".  They are flawed. They make mistakes.  They are deep, thinking, human tragic individuals.  Not white washed zombies from a Michael Bay movie.  He knew you can't have a boy take control of a violent, murderous people at the head of a repressed religion and then have his winning one battle be the end of it.  Jihad, an uncontrollable orgy or murder and rape and violence and revenge, is the only logical and human outcome.

[SandChigger]

Sterilized 11, 13, 90? For gods sake? What about just 1?

How odd ... in another thread weren't you praising Jessica for slaughtering a dinner party? Remember, if you kill one, it's easier to kill 2. Kill 2 and you can more easily kill 10. Kill ten and 100 becomes less problematic. A thousand, a million, a billion, a planet ... what's the difference to a hero turned tyrant? :D

The reason I brought up the number was exactly the question Mahdi asked you: Have you actually read the original books since the 70s & 80s?

Do we really want to have a hero who sterilizes planets, and its' a good thing?

Yeah, someone needs to go back and reread the books.

Do you think that you would want your father writing about the future of mankind, and how he "has" to sterilize planets?

Huh? What the hell are you babbling on about here?

Or, do you think that Brian should have published his father's like the incohorent babble that is 1980's "Unfinished Tales", published by Christopher Tolkien?

I haven't looked at those, to be honest; keep meaning to, but not yet. But I do believe that Brian Herbert collecting and editing and publishing his father's notes and chapter sketches and what have you would have been an actual contribution to his father's legacy and no doubt would have earned him the gratitude and respect and lasting renown he so seems to want. Instead he's going to be remembered as a money-grubbing no-talent bumbler who signed his name to a never-ending series of cheap rip-off pulp novels penned by the premier science fantasy hack in the industry today.

Bravo, Brian! Good show!

(So, honestly, are you a member of KJA's "Special Forces" site, or just one of his many independent sycophants?)

[MrFlibble]

But I do believe that Brian Herbert collecting and editing and publishing his father's notes and chapter sketches and what have you would have been an actual contribution to his father's legacy and no doubt would have earned him the gratitude and respect and lasting renown he so seems to want.

I agree with that. By the way, does HLP support any kind of academic research of FH's writing? I;ve seen some very nice articles on the new dealing with various sources of influence and allusions in Dune, some of them written by Willis E. McNelly. Publishing such works would be a true contribution to Frank's literary legacy, but does the Herbert Estate actually do anything in that direction?

[SandChigger]

To the best of my knowledge, no, nothing whatsoever.

The official spokesman for the HLP, KJA, is extremely anti-academic in his attitude. I suspect he simply can't comprehend that people have a real interest in Frank Herbert's notes and materials unfiltered through his "creative vision", other than as a method of attacking his third-rate pulp adaptations of them. (Assuming that he actually has used the notes et al. in some capacity in hiking out the McDune books & short stories.)

Byron Merritt has been mouthfarting on the DN BBS recently about materials being donated to some "reference library" at some time in the future, but he is still a very junior member of the HLP and it will probably be many years before he is in a position to make good on any such vague promises. (And he could always change his mind down the road, decide to try to milk all he can out of them as well ... his uncle certainly isn't letting him have a go at them now. And there's another peek into the mind of Brian Herbert for you: instead of working with his nephew, who is also a writer, and keeping Dune in the family, BH decided to bring in a complete outsider. Obviously the primary concern in choosing a partner was the potential for big sales.)

[Dante]

And honestly, to say that "The Life of Muad'Dib, Volume 1" was streamlined for Fremen consumption was gutsy, series-changing, and a life-changing call for Brian to allow or write.

That doesn't prevent it from also being monstrously stupid.

There is an important difference between adding to a classic work and changing a classic work. The first three prequels were passable (to some) largely because they were adding history, and didn't interfere with the original six too much. Everything after that has been distortion and simplification of the most gross and self-satisfied nature. Water worms, lightning ladies, parade after parade of brainless characters... It's not a fresh perspective on the original work, it's not an appreciative addition, it's a truth-warping travesty.

[ErasOmnius]

Read Children last week.

Concerned about the allegories of "Dune" to our present society.

So if a dictator rose up and said that he had to sterilize a whole people group, or an entire continent, we would just brand him a good ole' guy, just like ol' weepy Paul Muad'Dib Atreides in Messiah?

"I'm so sad I have to kill all of those people!"

You don't see why Brian Herbert would want to modify that part of his father's belief system, like he did in Winds of Dune?

Honestly, I've been waiting 30 years for that to occur. Thank God Brian Herbert had the guts to do it.

[Dante]

No, that's just wrong. And honestly, the idea makes me a bit sick. Heroes that are nothing but heroic? Moral choices that are black and white? It's disgusting.

Dune is a masterpiece for a great many reasons, not least of which the flawed and paradoxical characters. We all knew that the Atreides committed genocide on a multiplanetary scale, the questions are why, what could they have done to avoid it, and could they have avoided it at all? The nature of people, of society, did it make that inevitable? Was Paul caught up in events beyond his control, or could he have stopped it if he tried harder? It's a question about humans and humanity that would not exist if Paul had been a cartoon villain or a hero.

And of course, it begs the question as to what good and evil really are, when applied to people like the Atreides. Collectively they killed billions of people, were responsible for various atrocities even after their deaths, but acted on the whole with good intentions. Leto II, arguably, saved the human race.

And it's gutsy to simplify that into nothing? Gods no.

[Dunenewt]

Paul was never really heroic, and although some of the newer books make him out to be heroic from an early age, I'm glad it is still made clear that he was flawed, and he could see it himself.  He had set humanity down a path which he could no longer stop, and all he could do was guide the flow.

[ErasOmnius]

No, that's just wrong. And honestly, the idea makes me a bit sick. Heroes that are nothing but heroic? Moral choices that are black and white? It's disgusting.

Dune is a masterpiece for a great many reasons, not least of which the flawed and paradoxical characters. We all knew that the Atreides committed genocide on a multiplanetary scale, the questions are why, what could they have done to avoid it, and could they have avoided it at all? The nature of people, of society, did it make that inevitable? Was Paul caught up in events beyond his control, or could he have stopped it if he tried harder? It's a question about humans and humanity that would not exist if Paul had been a cartoon villain or a hero.

And of course, it begs the question as to what good and evil really are, when applied to people like the Atreides. Collectively they killed billions of people, were responsible for various atrocities even after their deaths, but acted on the whole with good intentions. Leto II, arguably, saved the human race.

And it's gutsy to simplify that into nothing? Gods no.

But you are assuming that there was NO intention for allegory at all on Frank Herbert's part.

What part of Arrakis = Iraq, don't we understand?

What part of Oil = Melange?

Who was it that Frank was allegorizing would not bow down to Paul? Who?

[Dante]

Do we care?

[Dunenewt]

I'm sure Dante understands the link between Dune and the middle east, we've spoken about it before.

[Andrew]

If talking about Paul being hero or not, I believe

Palumbo, Donald. "The monomyth as fractal pattern in Frank Herbert's Dune novels". Science Fiction Studies 25.3 (Nov. 1998): 433-58.

Talks about the heroes and anti heroes in original dune books. I have the articles somewhere, but too lazy to look up right now.

abstract for the article. There are more big words in that abstract than in the new dune books :P Are there any scholarly articles or books based upon the new books done yet?

[SandChigger]

Read Children last week.

And yet you still didn't get the sterilized planets figure right. Only retentive down below, huh?

Concerned about the allegories of "Dune" to our present society.

So if a dictator rose up and said that he had to sterilize a whole people group, or an entire continent, we would just brand him a good ole' guy, just like ol' weepy Paul Muad'Dib Atreides in Messiah?

"I'm so sad I have to kill all of those people!"

You don't see why Brian Herbert would want to modify that part of his father's belief system, like he did in Winds of Dune?

Who is Brian Herbert (snort, like he's really writing these things!) to modify anything? What the hell are you trying to say, that FH's writings embody a "belief system" that somehow must be expiated by his son, like some idiotic "sins of the fathers" mea culpa orgy?

That's stupid.

Honestly, I've been waiting 30 years for that to occur. Thank God Brian Herbert had the guts to do it.

You've been waiting 30 years for someone to rewrite Messiah? Well thank God for KJA then, huh? Seems like he's out to rewrite ALL of Dune. ::)

But you are assuming that there was NO intention for allegory at all on Frank Herbert's part.

Who said that?

What part of Arrakis = Iraq, don't we understand?

What part of "Dune was written in the 1960s" don't YOU understand?

(And only someone completely ignorant of Arabic