About Islam

[Tatar Khan]

Due to to the fact that I noticed that not everyone is really clearly understands Islam as the religion and where it is coming from, I decided to create this thread where I'll do my best to explain things about Islam so anyone can ask things and I'll try to answer to my best knowledge and try to get people who I know are religious scholars and the Islamic scholar that I know to answer the questions I can not.

The word Islam is derived from the word salam which means "peace" or "surrender"  the full translation of the word Islam is given as "the perfect peace that comes when one's life is surrendered to God"

I'll also look over the story of Islam and its basic fundamental principals.

From the religious point of view the story of Islam starts the same as the Bible. "In the beginning God..." starts Genesis. Koran completely agrees with that, but only switches the name God for Allah. Allah is the result of joining the words al(the) and Illah (God). Thus Allha means "the God" as there is no other God according to Muslims.

So Allah creates teh world and than the man - Adam. One of descendants of Adam is Noah whose son is Shem, and that is where words Semite comes from. Like the Jews Arabs are Semites, so technically they can not be anti-semitic.

One of descendants of Shem is Abraham. This is where both Bible and Koran agree. Islam possibly could be originating from the concept of the aslama. Aslama is what Koran calls the sacrifice of his son that Abraham was willing to make to God as the supreme test of his faith. (The event is vividly described in Bible and Koran). Except there is a disagreement on which son Abraham was going to sacrifice. Bible claims Isaac from whom the Jews descend from and Koran claims it was Ishmael from whom the Arabs descend from. According to Bible Abraham banished Ishmael and his mother Hagar who was a servant in Abraham and with whom Abraham slept to produce a son because his wife Sarah was unable to get pregnant. The banishment occurs after Sarah finally gives birth to Isaac. Koran more has the story look like Abraham send Ishmael away and later visited him in place where he settled now called Mecca. Koran goes to claim that both Abraham and Ishmael worked together to shape the Islam's holy object of Kaaba.

[Egeides]

I think that what first puzzles the onlooker these days is Islam as peaceful, because of recent events.

I think that Little Jihad (not the interior one) could very well be brought up as something like Gandhi-style action, but then in India Gandhi was the leader convincing others (that's not exactly as in the Quran I think -where no one should "call" a Jihad-, so it'd need/imply its own form). (yet my knowledge is limited there)

[SAND]

Hing knowledge of more then one relegion is wise choice, my own thread on islam has bee locked dunno why but I see it has revived

[Tatar Khan]

In non-religious approach Islam started in second half og 6th century C.E. with the prophet Muhammad. According to religious view he brought the Islam to the final focus thus concluding the work of the previous prophets (Ahmadiyya Muslims do not believe that exactly and have an additional prophet). The Koran acknowledges that there were previous prophets of God before Muhammad but he is the final one and so is called "Seal of the Prophets".

As a Sufi scholar (Sufis are the mystics of the Islam and the strive to complete understanding of Islam, they have their own poetry, music and dance culture, quite interesting to actually to look at) put it that to understand Islam you must first take the paper and go to Abraham and have him bless it, than to Mosses and have him write on it, have Jesus sign it and Muhammad seal it, thus you achieve the diploma of the a person who have complete understanding of the Islam. Of course, all this is meant as a metaphor.

Muhammad was born into the world that could be described as barbaric. The Arabs of the day were not strongly organised with different clans fighting between each other, banditism was common, gambling was excessive and so were drinking and sexual orgies. The current religion of Arabs had 360 different gods and desert was populated with evil spirits and jinns.

[nemafakei]

"the desert was populated with evil spirits and jinns"

Wait, so Muhammed made them extinct? Damn, maybe Emprowrm was right...

[Caid Ivik]

it had to be slow process, Bible speak even of goatmen

btw at one lecture I heard that it was Khadija, who in fact persuaded Muhammad to include the jinns in Quran, as he found it weird, can you enlighten this point?

[Tatar Khan]

Originally jinns were spirits of the desert, and since desert was cruel so the idea was that jinns were cruel. From non-religious point of view one can see jinns just transferring to the Islam due to their high hold on people's believes. Saints in Christianity are one of example of that. Romans did the same thing by integrating foreign gods into their pantheon or associating them with their gods. Jinns in Islam are nothing more than just spirits that like humans have free will as so do what they want.

Muhammed (translated as "highly praised") was born in c. 571 C.E. into a leading tribe of Mecca Koerish. His father died few days before his birth, his mother when he was 6 and than his grandfather when he was 9. So he ended up living with one of his uncles. Due to experiencing hardships in his life (his uncle was not wealthy) he quickly became open to the plight of the orphans, poor and weak. While he was growing up his reaction to the society of around him turned towards the horror and disgust due to constant violence and and general immorality. This period is believed to be the forming period of his life. Muslims would say this is when God's angels were filling the heart of Muhammad with light.

At 25 he took up caravan business and started to work for the widow named Khadija, with whom after a while the relationship deepened and they got married. She would the provider of the support he will need when the first teachings of Koran would come down to him. The first teachings would come down 15 years later when Muhammad was 40. Muhammad often went to Mount Hira where he sat in the cave and thought on nature of good and evil, universe, superstition of his contemporaries.

It is important to note that Allah at the time was one of the members of Arabic pantheon and was seen to be the creator, supreme provider, and determiner of man's destiny. So after a many nights it was Allah who became the more and more important  in Muhammad's understanding, he became convinced that Allha was much greater than his country men thought he was. It came to Muhammad that Allah was not one of the gods or just a god but he was exactly what his name meant The God. And so he cried: La ilaha illa Allah!. (There is no God but Allah!).

[SandChigger]

it had to be slow process, Bible speak even of goatmen

OK, even I gotta call for a clarification on this one.

Goatmen? Book, Chapter and Verse please.

[Caid Ivik]

Thanks Khan; how the jinns were perceived? Were they just supernatural beings of fairy tales and poetry, or have there been some kind of a worship? In other words, something on which the majority of a commune could agree. To use another biblical parallel: like the jewish sacrifices to Azazel (Leviticus 16,10).

Goatmen? Book, Chapter and Verse please.

Isaia 13,21

[Purge]

Jews did not/do not make sacrifices to azazel.  Azazel is a word for the cliff which one of the goats was "sent to".  It is not a supernatural being, or a being of any kind, and no sacrifices were made to "it".

Isaia 13,21

There are no references to goatmen.  There is no such thing.

[Purge]

Tatar,

The notion that Arabs can't be anti-semites flies into the face of reality, and is a largely semantic argument.  It is well known that anti-Semitic since the inception of the term has referred to a particular attitude towards Jews, and not all "semitic language speaking people".

Also, the Koran is ambiguous on which son Abraham brought.  The account can be found within Sura 37:99-113.

[Tatar Khan]

Thanks Khan; how the jinns were perceived? Were they just supernatural beings of fairy tales and poetry, or have there been some kind of a worship? In other words, something on which the majority of a commune could agree.

Jinns were perceived originally as demons and so they were not worshiped, unless there were cults of demon worshipers (can not recall if there were but there are always some in any place), however there were about 360 gods in Arabic pantheon that were worshiped. If any of them were former jinns that got over glorified enough to become gods, I don't know, since very little is know about the Arabic pagan transitions due to lack of written records during the time and because the Muslims later tried to remove as much as possible the remainders of pagan traditions.

Tatar,

The notion that Arabs can't be anti-semites flies into the face of reality, and is a largely semantic argument.  It is well known that anti-Semitic since the inception of the term has referred to a particular attitude towards Jews, and not all "semitic language speaking people".

This is where the word changes meaning. Originally the word meant being against anybody with semetic background. However due to lack of arabs or other semetic people in Europe except jews before 20th century the word changed its meaning to mean being anti-jewish. I prefer using the word anti-jewish ranther anti-semetic due to the fact that even if you open the Oxford dictury right now the word will still be explained as being against semetic people rather than anti-jewish.

Also, the Koran is ambiguous on which son Abraham brought.  The account can be found within Sura 37:99-113.

Here is where the things are lost in translation. In the Bible and the Koran the word to describe the son is used in such a way that it either could mean the first-born son or the only son. When they are translated form Hebrew or Arabic the meaning is lost. This is the response I got when I questioned an islamic scholar about this issue.

Continuing on with the story:

However any prophet must receive his commission like the ones previous to him. A voice came to Muhammad and on that night of power and excellence the Koran was opened to Muhammad. He was lying on the floor thinking when a voice came to him with overwhelming presence and said: Cry!.

"What should I cry?" Asked Muhammad and the voice said:

Cry - in the name of thy Lord!

Who created man from blood coagulated.

Cry! Thy Lord is wondrous kind

Who by the pen has taught mankind

Things they knew not being blind.

He came running to his wife, at first she did not believe him because he was raving like a mad lunatic, but when he calmed down and told here the whole story of what happened she believed him, thus becoming the first true convert to Islam. This Muslims say is the proof of that Muhammad was true prophet because who knows better the man than his wife.

For the next 23 years Muhammad would preach as the voice would come back and tell him to praise the Lord.

He never did any miracles or glorified his image. He refused to do any miracles by saying that I am not here to work wonders I am here to preach to men, I am not an angel and I do not hold any Allah's treasures in my hand.

If people wanted to see signs than it would be not signs of Muhammad's greatness but that of God and the easy way to see them is all around you, the heavenly bodies, fruits, wind, order of universe in general.

There is only one miracle and that is Koran. The fact that he himself could have produced those revelations he could not believe and neither do the Muslims.

A non religious person could say that by sitting in a cave and thinking about good and evil and everything else, plus his contact through caravans with other cultures could have produced in him a cumulative understanding of philosophy that he could have used however the counter argument to that by Muslims is that Muhammad lacked formal education, yet Koran is perfect, grammatically correct, poetic in its sounds as it was said by Muhammad. Listen to any Muslim prayer in Arabic it is beautiful to behold it sounds like a song.

[Caid Ivik]

360 gods? I thought there were only these three - Allat, Manat and

[Warskum]

I have a few questions about islam:

What happens when one sins?

What does the Islam say about the task of humans...what does Allah expect from them?

What do people get when they go to heaven?

[Tatar Khan]

360 gods? I thought there were only these three - Allat, Manat and

[Purge]

Tatar,

I speak and read Hebrew, and there is nothing whatsoever about the verse from the Torah (I can't speak for the Koran) which implies firstborn son, or Ishmael.  It is, in fact, quite clear that the verse is speaking of Yitzhaq (Isaac), and takes place after Yishmael (Ismael) had been sent to the south, and dwelt in Midbar Paran (Desert of Paran), which is between Mitzraim (Egypt) and Arabia.

[Tatar Khan]

Tatar,

I speak and read Hebrew, and there is nothing whatsoever about the verse from the Torah (I can't speak for the Koran) which implies firstborn son, or Ishmael.  It is, in fact, quite clear that the verse is speaking of Yitzhaq (Isaac), and takes place after Yishmael (Ismael) had been sent to the south, and dwelt in Midbar Paran (Desert of Paran), which is between Mitzraim (Egypt) and Arabia.

Well as I mentioned to answer your comment earlier I talked to islamic scholar and that was his response, he is also able to read and speak Hebrew. Myself I can not read or speak neither Hebrew nor Arabic.

Continuing on with the story:

Muhammad's message was not welcomed with open arms by the local leaders. The message he was spreading was that all people are equal before God and that flew in the face of the current situation and hierarchy that was established. He was only able to gather in first 3 years only 5 followers however by the end of 10 years he already had about hundred family clans recognising him as a prophet. The old hierarchy first started to ridicule the followers but later turned to stronger actions, such as physical attacks, imprisoning them and torture. However as with any religion such acts often strengthen the faith rather than make it weaker. One example was a slave who was first to be the muezzin ( a person who calls faithful to the prayer). His owner took him to the desert and forced to lie down shirtless on the desert floor and placed a large rock on his chest. He was given the choice to die or return to paganism. The slave just ke[pt repeating "ahadun" (one God). After several hours owner gave up and sold the slave to another Muslim.

[Tatar Khan]

When the number of Muslims in Mecca started to rise the Meccan nobility became alarmed. The Muslims were threatening the way of life that the Meccan nobility was used to because the Muslim teachings were threatening the status quo. So they decided to move against Muhammad. At this time the delegation of 75 people came from Yathrib and invited Muhammad to come. The city was facing a crisis of leadership and wanted an outside person to take the role. There were already significant number of Muslims in Yathrib and so when the Muhammad's conditions that they observe precepts of Islam, obey him in all that is right and protect him as they would their own family.

Meccan nobility learning of the migration tried to prevent it but failed as on 622 CE Muhammad and his followers moved to Yathrib which changed its name to Medinat un-Nabi (the city of the Prophet) and later to short form of Medina. The migration is called as Hijrah (flight) and is important event from which all Muslim calendars are dated.

In Medina Muhammad goes from the spiritual leader into the statesman and a very good one. Yet despite being the supreme magistrate of the city he still lives in the clay house, milks his own goats, and allows anyone to come and talk to him day or night. He even is told to have mended his own clothing. Muslim historians say that God put the keys to the treasures of the world before him but Mohammad refused to take it.

As administrator the reign is described as ideal blend of justice and mercy. He exercised justice necessary for order and punished the lawbreakers unflinchingly but was very merciful when the injury was against him. In those 10 years his personal story is tied to Medina's commonwealth, where he was able to bring 5 conflicting tribes (2 of which were Jewish) into the orderly confederation. During his reign he made sure that Jewish citizens were given the same rights as the Arabs. This achievement made him legendary in Arabia, and people came to see this man.

[SandChigger]

I don't suppose there are any complementary non-Arabic/non-Muslim sources for most of this "history"?

Back to the satyrs/goat-demons. Did I misunderstand above or was it being claimed that they were real beings, that were expelled or driven to extinction? ::)

[Tatar Khan]

After formation of confederation of Medina the struggle with Mecca followed. Thesecond year from Hijrah the Medinise won a spectacular victory over the Meccan army that outnumbered them, which led them to believe that angles of God fought by their side. The next year however the Medinise lost, but the Meccans did not follow up on the victory until two years later when they laid the siege to Medina in last desperate effort. However they failed and so 8 years after Hijrah he returned to Mecca. He refused to persecute his former oppressors and accepted the mass conversion of the whole city. Kaaba stone in the centre of Mecca was dedicated to Allah. He himself left for Medina however. He would die in 632 CE. By his death the whole of Arabia was united, in 100 years after that  his followers will conquer Armenia, Persia, Syria, Palestine, Iraq, Egypt, Spain and if it was not the loss against Charles Martel in the Battle of Tours in 732 CE the Western Europe would have probably been conquered as well. In his lifetime Muhammad not established the religion followed by many, untied previously divided people, placed the new religion on the par with Judaism and Christianity and laid the basis for the one of the largest empires that world has ever seen. Even today Islam claims a large number of followers with the Organisation of Islamic Conference being the second largest organization after UN.

Muslims explain this as this being the work of God.

While all Muslims admire Muhammad and after his name always say Peace be upon him! Today after 13 centuries they still pray by saying Salam upon you, O Prophet of God. However, Muhammad is not the cornerstone of the religion, Koran is. Koran i s the most read book and the most memorized book in the world and it has the most influence on those who read it or recite it.

Koran is 4/5 of New testament in length. It is divided into 114 chapters or surahs. With exception of the first surah which figures in t Muslims daily prayer all the surahs decrease in length in exact order. The Koran was dictated by God to Muhammad. It came in manageable segments over 25 years in different voices that focused gradually to that of angle Gabriel. (I would like to verify this specifically as it is confusing whether the angel Gabriel dictated or was it God, there seems to be some confusion there). The words were recorded by the followers with God making sure that they would not be altered.

Islam assumes that both Torah and the Bible are also true revelations of God and so the Muslims, Christians and Jews are classed together as people of the Book. However Muslims believe that Torah and Bible have two flaws. One: is that being revealed earlier than Koran they are not complete as human kind was not mature enough to receive the whole truth, second is that during their recording and rerecording they got errors built in them which explains the discrepancies with the stories in Koran and the stories in the Bible. Modern day Muslim would cite the fact that Torah was written by the Jews exiled to Babylon from oral traditions and was influenced by local traditions as the reason for the errors. The New Testament is cited to have errors due to the fact that the gospels were also written after Jesus's death and so his message got recorded incorrectly making The Son of God rather than just a prophet.

[Tatar Khan]

The sound of Koran verses and of Arabic itself are very moving for people, the crowds in Muslim world are moved to highest emotional pitch by the statements in Arabic that when translated appear just simple words. The language has music, rhyme and rhythm produce a hypnotic effect. But this is understandable that in the world of nomads where visual arts are limited to small pottery, and plain clothing. The architecture is mostly restricted by tents. So going from that it is understandable that average nomad did not have too many visual objects. This means that the art was restricted to verbal expressions. Now come in Muhammad with poetically perfect Koran and you have a marvel to behold. This also explains why you can not read Koran in translation but must do so in Arabic (something that I am planning to do some time in the future).

Now to the basis of theology in Islam

Islam rests on the 4 main concepts: Allah, Creation, Man, and the Day of Judgment.

Allah

Like in any religion the main focus is God. Allah is immaterial and therefore invisible. Muslims would say that he doesn't fit into the laws of the universe because he is immaterial he is beyond them. Arabs and Muslims see Allah as a prime mover the being that causes natural phenomena to happen, he is like invisible hand guiding the nature.

Muslims see themselves bringing monotheism to the world as the predecessor religions are seen to have departed from monotheism. For Judaism the Jews depart from single God worship by creating the golden calf or other smaller household deities, and also they worship the Law to such extent that it approaches idolatry. Christians departed from monotheism by giving the God a son in form of Jesus who is now part of Trinity, Jesus for Muslims was a prophet who was born from a virgin.

Allah is the only God and this is repeated constantly over and over again in Koran. Allah is almighty, omnipotent, Lord of the worlds, the Author of heaven and earth, the Creator of life and death. Allah is often seen by the West as pitiless, ruthless tyrant and sacrifices his own people for his own gain. Muslims characterise Allah otherwise. He is the Holy, the Peaceful, the Faithful, the Guardian over His servants, the Shelterer of orphans, the Guide of the erring, the Deliverer from every affliction, the Friend of the bereaved, the Consoler of the afflicted, in His hand is good, and He is the generous Lord, the Gracious, the Hearer, the Near-at-Hand, the Compassionate, the Merciful, the Very-forgiving, whose love for man is more tender than that of the mother-bird for her young.

Koran has a dark undertone to it with warning for the committing the sins however it also paints the world of joy where God will look after you in your most neediest moments. Standing beneath he God's gracious skies a Muslim can turn to God anytime and pray for strength and guidance because there is nothing between the man and Allah that stands. Muslims do not require to go to the mosque to pray or a priest to lead them.

Creation

Allah deliberately created the world. The world since created by God is real and there is no doubt to that. (the whole idea of shapes and philosophy on recognition of shapes founded by Plato in Greece is thrown out by Muslims). Another fact is that God created the world than it must be perfect and good, there is no faults with it. The greatest creation is of course the creation of humans. Now Islam finds a good place for theory of evolution in it, since Allah is the invisible force behind the workings of the universe than he is the invisible force behind workings of the evolution. Also what is human is questioned by the Islamic scholars and some would claim that original human could have been the single cell organism from which we have evolved.

The Man

The humans are given the soul which can never be destroyed once it is created like Allah soul is also immaterial. Since souls are separate than the individuality is extremely valued in Islam. Expression of goodness, value and virtue are what makes us individual and unique since we all due it differently. To a Muslims Allah is also individual and the most unique one.

While Islam stresses the power of Allah it also stresses the freewill of people and that all the sins we do are our fault is no one else's. All the sins would be accounted for on the Day of Judgment when the world will come to the end.

The Judgment Day and Afterlife

Depending on the accounts of sins and good things that person has done the person's soul would go to Hell or to Heaven. Heaven described as place with deep rivers of cool  crystal water, lush fruits and vegetation, boundless fertility and mansions with servants. Hell is the place of boiling metal and lava and fire. More orthodox Muslims would take the description literally, while more moderate as a metaphor. Reasoning behind it is that if soul is immaterial than all these things would be hardly matter for the soul, second is that in Koran it says that some are descriptions are true and others are metaphors and finally the fact that Koran says that having the pleasure to see God (as a soul would be able to do so) is greatest pleasure one can receive (heaven).

[SandChigger]

Obviously not in answer to my question.

And since I couldn't give a flying flock of goatmen about the excruciatingly interesting (I'm sure) intricacies of Islamic doctrine, I'll leave all that for someone else to comment on.

Were these goatmen real, physical entities? Is that what you believe? ???

[Tatar Khan]

Obviously not in answer to my question.

And since I couldn't give a flying flock of goatmen about the excruciatingly interesting (I'm sure) intricacies of Islamic doctrine, I'll leave all that for someone else to comment on.

Were these goatmen real, physical entities? Is that what you believe? ???

As it was pointed out above the goatmen are mentioned in the Bible and not in the Koran. There is not goatmen in Islam.

[Warskum]

No goatmen are mentioned in the bible, the given verse does not contain goatmen.

You said: "Koran is the most read book and the most memorized book in the world and it has the most influence on those who read it or recite it"

I am quite sure that the bible holds the most read book position, selling more then 100million each year.

I am surprised anyone measured what book was most memorized...did someone ask every human being which book he or she memorizes? I think thats biased information, for example most of the people around me memorize the bible and cite it every day and their lives have dramatically changed and continue to change every day, so I could argue that the bible has the biggest effect on people who read it and is memorized the most. However, that would be biased information, since I have no statistical evidence to back that up.

In short, I feel that the above statement you made is biased and not true.

[Tatar Khan]

No goatmen are mentioned in the bible, the given verse does not contain goatmen.

Well you got to take that up with the person who mentioned that there are goatmen originally.

You said: "Koran is the most read book and the most memorized book in the world and it has the most influence on those who read it or recite it"

I am quite sure that the bible holds the most read book position, selling more then 100million each year.

I am surprised anyone measured what book was most memorized...did someone ask every human being which book he or she memorizes? I think thats biased information, for example most of the people around me memorize the bible and cite it every day and their lives have dramatically changed and continue to change every day, so I could argue that the bible has the biggest effect on people who read it and is memorized the most. However, that would be biased information, since I have no statistical evidence to back that up.

In short, I feel that the above statement you made is biased and not true.

Buying and reading one is very different. How often do Christians read and reread the Bible. I know that almost every hotel and motel in the West has a Bible in the room, but how many use it. Muslims required by their religious code to actually memorise the whole of Koran. I do not remember any of such requirements in Christianity with respects to Bible. You also would be hard pressed to find a Muslim who never read a Koran however I have no difficulty finding Christians who never read the Bible and know the stories from it only thanks to Sunday school.

The sales of Koran are not high due to the the way the book is perceived. they are more passed on through the generations and also due to the fact that Muslims live with family staying together (multi generation family living under one roof or very close like next house). The family would share one Koran. The easiest place to spot the Koran in Muslim home is to look at the highest shelf in house and you would see it sitting there, that is very traditional. So personally, I am not being biased since I am not a Muslim. My statement comes from the book called the Religions of Man by Houston Smith. But I am sure I have seen the same statements made by other religious scholars whose books I have read.

According to Kenneth Cragg Koran is the most rehearsed and recited of all Scriptures.