Re: Dune 7... or Dune 7 & Dune 8? :(

[SandChigger]

It's interesting revisiting old threads like this one.

Now that both "Dune 7" books are out and the Dynamic Duo are busy at work on the first book of the HEROES OF DUNE series, what do you (who have read both) think? Was it necessary to divide the story into two volumes?

My opinion is that Hunters was totally unnecessary. Heck, they recap most of the events in Sandworms!

When you consider that characters like Erasmus (and probably Omnius

[Andrew]

Your post was on topic, but it was for a 4 year old thread. So I split it.

There is no need to reply to a thread, especially those older then a month, unless you have something to contribute to the discussion.

Original thread SandChigger is referring to is Dune 7... or Dune 7 & Dune 8? :(

[Serkanner]

Without reading them I know the both were not needed. Considering the sheer number of self-made characters and plot lines it is impossible that these books are even remotely based on any notes written by Frank Herbert.

[Dunenewt]

But should the only true books be the ones written by Frank, or should someone be allowed to continue his legacy?

*hides from SandChigger*

[Vanguard3000]

But should the only true books be the ones written by Frank, or should someone be allowed to continue his legacy?

Sure, why not?  That's what fan fiction is.

[Dunenewt]

Nevertheless, I will defend my corner to the death ;)

[MrFlibble]

Considering the sheer number of self-made characters and plot lines it is impossible that these books are even remotely based on any notes written by Frank Herbert.

I second that.

But should the only true books be the ones written by Frank, or should someone be allowed to continue his legacy?

I don't think that the "sequels" are in any way continuing the legacy. Unless you consider any book with the words "Herbert" and "Dune" on the cover as legacy :P

[Emperor Harkonnen]

But should the only true books be the ones written by Frank, or should someone be allowed to continue his legacy?

I agree with you. The Dune story was not completed, and in my opinion someone should finish it. Who would then be better fit than his son? You cannot expect him to write exactly like FH, and I agree that he probably could have done a better job in continuation of FH work, instead of creating his own universe, but I am still glad someone continued the Dune story. :)

[MrFlibble]

The Dune story was not completed, and in my opinion someone should finish it. Who would then be better fit than his son?

I'm sorry but this logic seems flawed to me. I, for one, do not think that being realted by blood to someone means better understanding this person. Perhaps Willis E. McNelly, Frank Herbert's close friend and co-author of the Dune Encyclopedia, would be a more fitting candidate? Sadly the HPL refused him the right to contribute to creation of the prequel books, as I've heard :'(

And by the way, I see the ending of Chapterhouse as a perfect finale of the Dune Chronicles.

And here you can read a quite detailed analysis of the sequels and how they "preserve" the Legacy of Frank Herbert.

If you're not afraid of spoilers, here are some excerpts from this article:

[hide]When Paul is stabbed and almost all of the blood is gone from his body, he uses the skills learned from the BG to SUCK THE BLOOD BACK INTO HIS BODY. What Frank Herbert described as master control over the human body has become nothing more than magic in this book.[/hide]

[hide]I also did not appreciate all the negativity towards Leto II. Again and again, BH/KJA talk about how Leto II and the Golden Path were failures. Are you kidding me? Leto acted as a drug counselor and slowly got humanity off of their melange addiction over 3500 years. He created Siona, whose genes are impervious to prescience so that all of humanity would no longer be subject to the decisions of one person. Using Siaynoq and the Fish Speakers, he created new "instincts" (racial memories of how to handle crisis), in humanity that enhance our survival ability (needed for the Famine Times and The Scattering) & got rid of the old instincts we no longer needed. I can provide more examples, but the point is that it seems BH/KJA do NOT understand the nuances of the Golden Path.[/hide]

And especially this one:

[hide]Duncan - I barely know where to begin with all of the problems with Duncan. He is called the "Ultimate Kwisatz Haderach" because he's lived so many lifetimes that he has some sort of enlightenment. Nevermind that he doesn't have the genetics for it...but even if that were true, then wouldn't the Tleilaxu masters all be Kwisatz Haderachs? I suppose one could argue that Duncan is "virtuous" or "moral," but those are subjective qualities.

Idaho merges with the flowmetal from Erasmus and undergoes a transformation similar to that of Leto II. Leto was able to form a symbiosis with the sandtrout because he could withstand vast amounts of melange due to his genes. What enabled Duncan to do the same? This is never explained.

Duncan is also called the "Ultimate Kwisatz Haderach" because he supposedly has "perfect prescience," and is able to see the "blind spots" that Muad'dib and the God Emperor could not. Whoa. In Heretics of Dune, Frank wrote, "When I was writing Dune, it was to be an examination of absolute prescience and its pitfalls." In the original Dune, he wrote, "no more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero." Now we have Duncan, the Ultimate Hero with Perfect Prescience. Frank must be rolling over in his grave. Didn't we all see the problems with heroes/messiahs and prescience in Dune Messiah? Didn't we see that the Hero Muad'dib had to be destroyed in Children of Dune in order to break out of the vise-like grip his vision had on humankind? Didn't we read hundreds of pages of philosophy about how "seeing" the future actually CREATES that future, narrowing possibilities, so that in the long run, humans face certain extinction? Didn't it take Leto II 3500 years to develop a gene which would block prescient sight so that humankind's destiny could no longer be locked into one vision? If Duncan is truly more powerful than Muad'dib and the God Emperor, aren't we back to square one with humanity's future stuck in the vision of one man?[/hide]

[Emperor Harkonnen]

Yes I also think McNelly would have done a good job, but since BH wanted to continue the work then there was nothing to do about it.

I totally agree that the sequels are full of flaws, and I, as most other, hoped for better novels. But I think it is better than nothing.

Chapterhouse leaves too much unanswered, and is absolutely not intended to be the last book. FH's notes proves that.

[MrFlibble]

Chapterhouse leaves too much unanswered, and is absolutely not intended to be the last book. FH's notes proves that.

Literature does not necessarily need to answer every question the reader might ask. That's what negative capability is for. As for FH's notes, prove they really exist first.

But I think it is better than nothing.

I disagree entirely with such a view.

[Mahdi]

McNelly and Herbert actually started writing a (that is "A" as in a SINGULAR) book based on the Butlerian Jihad together which was to be the next Dune book released.  Unfortunately, Herbert fell ill after McNelly finished his draft of the first two chapters.  McNelly later approached Brian Herbert about continuing the novel, but Bran never answered him until, dum dum dum, KJA and Brian announced they were writing their own Butlerian Jihad TRILOGY supposedly based on Herberts notes.

Of course, this trilogy turned out to be nothing at all like the single book on the Butlerian Jihad that McNelly and Herbert had planned out and started to write.

I say that the Herbert Partnership has every right in the world, legal and otherwise, to write as many Dune books and produce as many Dune products as they wish. 

I am equally positive that they do believe they are following in Franks traditions and that they believe they truly do understand his novels.

I do not think they are simply cashing in on his creation. I do think there would be a lot fewer novels if they hadn't received entire garbage trucks full of money for writing each one.  Which, again, is fair enough.  I'm sure that if anyone of us was offered a good amount of money we'd write a book too.  I know I would.

However, none of that means that we, as individuals, have to believe them when they say their interpretation of Frank's vision is the correct interpretation of Franks vision.  The only one who can say that definitively is Frank, and I doubt we will ever see his original notes.  Dreamer of Dune is as close as we'll ever get (although I'm sure there will be several other dreamer of dune type books in the future).

In short, I don't blame them for writing their books, I believe they believe it when they say they are carrying on Franks vision, but I don't agree with their interpretation of the vision, and despite there claims there is a lot of evidence in the public contradicting their claims.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

Literature does not necessarily need to answer every question the reader might ask.

No, and that was why I wrote that is leaves too much unanswered. All questions doesn't need to be answered, but to me it seems like some are quite obvious that should be answered(like what will happen to Duncan and the ship or the gene-samples of Scytale, why would he mention them if they didn't have a meaning?). And I think most will agree that FH intended a sequel for Chapterhouse. You can of course interpret Chapterhouse another way, but my impression is that there was supposed to come another Dune novel from FH.

[Egeides]

McNelly and Herbert actually started writing a (that is "A" as in a SINGULAR) book based on the Butlerian Jihad together which was to be the next Dune book released.  Unfortunately, Herbert fell ill after McNelly finished his draft of the first two chapters.  McNelly later approached Brian Herbert about continuing the novel, but Bran never answered him until, dum dum dum, KJA and Brian announced they were writing their own Butlerian Jihad TRILOGY supposedly based on Herberts notes.

Of course, this trilogy turned out to be nothing at all like the single book on the Butlerian Jihad that McNelly and Herbert had planned out and started to write.

I remember something like that. You know where it's from?

There seems to be quite a difference in spirit with McNelly. If he was writing a sequel with McNelly, I don't really figure why the notes to Brian Herbert.

[Mahdi]

From McNelly himself.  He brought it up in a few interviews, including one with me. 

[Egeides]

:O Alright. Well it's odd.

[MrFlibble]

Mahdi, you brought some vey good points. I thik this sums it all up :)

[Egeides]

I found what Mahdi is referring to, so why not sharing it here (I know I know, I should have searched first of all):

http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?topic=4399.0 (leads to http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.php/1/5/1607/2900? )

http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?board=1%3baction=display%3bthreadid=217

I can be missing stuff, as some posts referred to interviews I don't know where.

I guess I might have read that in the past. Anyway, it's as Mahdi said with more meat, and with parts on FH's plans and outlook.

[SandChigger]

But should the only true books be the ones written by Frank, or should someone be allowed to continue his legacy?

*hides from SandChigger*

There are and ever only shall be SIX TRUE DUNE BOOKS.

Anything else is fanfic, no matter who writes it or what organizations declare it authorized, official or canon.

And the new books by Kevin (and Brian) are fairly bad fanfic at that. They introduce improbable new characters and elements and twist old ones into unrecognizable shapes.

(Now, that wasn't so bad, was it? No need to have hidden. ;D )