Heroes of Dune

[Dunenewt]

Well, the tentative titles are:

Paul of Dune

Jessica of Dune

Irulan of Dune

From what we know, they will deal with issues in the time between Dune: House Corrino, and Dune, as well as the time of Paul's Jihad,

I, for one, want to find out what happens to Rhombur and House Vernius, and how they become IX.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

Seems interesting. I am looking forward to reading about the Jihad times, I always thought there was kind of info-gap between Dune and Messiah... not bigger than between CoD and GEoD though  :P

Still Dune and Messiah are so closely connected, that they would leave many unanswered questions. Such as the magnitude of the Jihad: How many Fremens were there compared to the number of planets they went to?

[Dunenewt]

from KJA's interview with Fantasy Book Critic:

Paul of Dune

[gunner154]

I'd never thought of Paul as a tyrant. That title was reserved for his dear son, no?

[Emperor Harkonnen]

I wouldn't consider any of them more of a tyrant than Shaddam IV

[Dunenewt]

Well Paul's reign involved a lot more control over the Imperium than Shaddam IV's.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

Well it is a different time. Individualism isn't appreciated in the extent it is today, so one would call him a tyrant from todays standards.

Control could be a good thing

[Dunenewt]

There's Feyd's kid to be explained as well.

[Andrew]

Pauls Jihad killed billions I think. I remember he makes a comparison to Hitler (and he makes Hitler look like a good guy).

[Dunenewt]

Yes, it does mention billions in the books.  I expect a lot of them were Major Houses unwilling to agree to the new order.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

That's right Andrew.

This quote from Dune Messiah is quite interesting:

"Stilgar," Paul said, "you urgently need a sense of balance which can come

only from an understanding of long-term effects. What little information we have

about the old times, the pittance of data which the Butlerians left us, Korba

has brought it for you. Start with the Genghis Khan."

"Ghengis . . . Khan? Was he of the Sardaukar, m'Lord?"

"Oh, long before that. He killed . . . perhaps four million."

"He must've had formidable weaponry to kill that many, Sire. Lasbeams,

perhaps, or . . ."

"He didn't kill them himself, Stil. He killed the way I kill, by sending out

his legions. There's another emperor I want you to note in passing -- a Hitler.

He killed more than six million. Pretty good for those days."

"Killed . . . by his legions?" Stilgar asked.

"Yes."

"Not very impressive statistics, m'Lord."

lol  :P

[Dunenewt]

The way its written, it also suggests the name Khan has been used by several Sardaukar as well.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

Yes and also note that he says a Hitler. This could suggest the name Hitler is used as a synonym for tyrant.

Such as Quisling is used for traitor.

[Dunenewt]

Hitler is supposed to have killed 6 million Jews, so maybe that where it came from.  Quisling is quite a Norwegian thing, I doubt many people outside of Norway would know what it would be in reference to, although I do.  Perhaps Judas would be a better example.

[Andrew]

And the Jews actually survived all those thousands of years.

So Frank Herbert godwinned his own book? ;)

[Dunenewt]

What do you mean by 'godwinned'?

Also, there is an assassination attempt on Paul during his early years at Caladan, which Duncan saves him from.  Who will try and kill him?  Harkonnens?  Moritani?  Or perhaps the BG?

[Emperor Harkonnen]

yeah that was quite astonishing reading about jews for the first time... had never even thought about them. But it makes sence, considering how protective they are of their traditions.

[Dunenewt]

Oh, Hasimir Fenrig tries to assassinate Paul as well, during the Jihad.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

Hitler is supposed to have killed 6 million Jews, so maybe that where it came from.  Quisling is quite a Norwegian thing, I doubt many people outside of Norway would know what it would be in reference to, although I do.  Perhaps Judas would be a better example.

No I think they were talking about another Hitler  :P

Anyway, I thought Quisling was used in other places as well. I just used that since it was more recent. One would think that if the name Hitler survived, so would Judas.

[Dante]

One could argue that Paul never made the transition from hero to tyrant. Perhaps he was always the former. Perhaps the latter. Personally I feel that he was both, from the moment he deposed Shaddam.

There is simply no need for all this necromancy. Dune was finished, perhaps not satisfactorily, but it was. A bit of pen-waving and a few chanted interviews might make the corpse shamble, but it won't do anything worthwhile or meaningful.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

I feel that the Jihad got a little chaotic, and Paul didn't have much control over what happened. we are talking about a people being raised with violence here.

[Dante]

Depends what you mean by control. He couldn't stop it, if that's what you mean. But one could equally argue that things fell out exactly as he knew they would anyway, and in a way he had all the control he needed.

One shouldn't judge the fremen by their violence.

[MrFlibble]

Paul didn't have any control actually. It was Leto II who had, and had the right to be called the Tyrant. Paul was a hostage to his position until he went to the desert and became the Preacher.

Returning to the main topic of the thread, I must say once again that I dislike the attitude of BH and KJA to explain everything. I actually like to have some "negative capability" in the books I read. Frank excellently used that.

Oh, Hasimir Fenrig tries to assassinate Paul as well, during the Jihad.

Where did you get that? I thought he retired to Salusa Secundus with Shaddam, and died there... ???

[Dunenewt]

Its mentioned in Sandworms of Dune.

[MrFlibble]

I thought Fenring and Paul had some sort of... compassion, because they were so close in terms of the BG breeding program... Fenring clearly didn't want to harm Paul.