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Homosexuality-> Genetics, Choice, or Both?


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Troll all you like Gunwounds, I wash my hands of this sorry 'debate.'

Thats what you usually say when you run out of ideas.  

Anyways ....back on topic...something i wanted to add is that animal examples of homosexuality are fallacious..... Dante offered up an example of A male Ram choosing  another male Ram more often than choosing a female as proof that animals are gay.  But anyone who knows anything about biology knows that animals either hump each other due to  confusion of smells or humping out of dominance.  If you place one male animal next to another male animl one it will mount the other one in order to send a message that "Hey i am the Alpha Male".  And this behavior will be more evident when a FEMALE is present.  So it is no wonder that the males will pay more attention to each other when a female is present.  Their supposedly "gay" activity is just a form of communication about who has dibs on the girl.  No one is really  offended by the "debate" or the "topic"... the only thing that is causing annoyance is their own personal shame of not being able to participate in the debate intellectually.  Some good advice is to remove yourself emotionally from the topic and then debate it with a clear head.  When one can learn to do that then they will not suffer from unnecessary/unintended offense or annoyance.

Guns

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Since Dante likes to hear it from the horses mouth... and since the strongest arguments usually come from people's own camps... i decided to see if i could find any "Real Gays" who disagreed with Dante.... and boy there was plenty....

Quotes from "Real Gays" on why being homosexual is a Choice.

I am 46 years old. I am female. I was married for 26 years and have three children and two grandchildren. In my case it was definitely a choice. When I was 35 or so, I met this woman, and we became friends. In the manner of teenagers, and at her suggestion, we decided to "experiment" sexually. I laugh now, to think back on it. I was petrified at the thought, but one day I looked at her and said, "OK, kiss me." We looked at each other and laughed, and she did. My response was, "Well, what the hell, the sky didn't fall! Do it again." . . . I made the choice to be a lesbian. I have found that sexually it is the right choice for me. I have been very lucky in that my children are totally accepting of my choice of lifestyle and my ex-husband is one of my best friends.

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I figure if Dante wants to argue... he can argue with his "own people"... he thinks that only homophobes or conservatives.... or people who are only interested in trolling would DARE post that being gay is a sexual taste or choice.  But here i offer up two promininent gays having an in-depth discussion about the choice of homosexuality.

The following is a rough transcript excerpted from a conversation on AOL Instant Messenger on July 2, 2000, between the owner of the QueerByChoice.com website, Gayle Madwin (shown here as QBC 101), and the owner of the Queer by Choice website on AOL, Frank Aqueno (shown here as FRANKAQ). The transcript has been revised slightly in some places to make it easier for others to follow.

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QBC 101: all of my life i have been surrounded by people who talk about "finding out" they "already are" queer and being "unable to change"

QBC 101: it is VERY HARD for me to understand

QBC 101: and i am trying to get my mind around it but it is so very alienating and it makes me feel like . . .

FRANKAQ: an alien

QBC 101: what am i even DOING in the queer community claiming to be queer when the definition of "queer" seems to be "unable to change"?

FRANKAQ: well, you are deconstructing that definition

QBC 101: yes but there are all these other people around me who LIVE by that old definition and i cannot make any SENSE of them!!

QBC 101: i do not belong in the hetero community at all but i cannot fit in ANYWHERE without first deconstructing definitions and "forcing" my way in. people say that being queer is about loving one's own sex but in most people's minds that is not really enough, i have to also say i "can't help" loving my own sex or else i don't "qualify" as a "real" queer

QBC 101: i do not know what it means to feel "unable to change" the way you do. you have experienced feeling "unable to change" but i have not

QBC 101: and so . . . i can make up theories all day long about why others go through this experience of "unable to change" but i am still really just as unable to RELATE to their experience as they are to relate to mine

FRANKAQ: yes

QBC 101: and then you talk about gender roles and power structures, how people choose to be exclusively with their own sex b/c it is more comfortably equal, nonexploitative, etc.

QBC 101: so, what does that mean about my choice to be bisexual?

QBC 101: i enjoy exploitation?

QBC 101: i am more optimistic about different genders' ability to get along?

QBC 101: what does it MEAN? why does the whole gender role thing just completely not MATTER to me in terms of my chosen bisexuality whereas evidently it matters enough to you to cause you to choose to be exclusively homo?

QBC 101: if we are all born the same then why do some turn out homo and some turn out bi?

QBC 101: i can handle why some turn out hetero b/c i think they are either cowards or just uneducated about their own sexual potential

FRANKAQ: different choices

QBC 101: but WHY? is the life of a "typical homo" fundamentally different from a "typical bi"?

QBC 101: what makes us into people who make different kinds of choices?

FRANKAQ: i would think experience

QBC 101: ok here is the trouble then

QBC 101: i am trying to imagine an experience that would have led me to choose to be homo

QBC 101: and i am having extreme difficulty imagining it

FRANKAQ: give me the floor a sec....

QBC 101: by all means take it, i don't seem to be able to handle it myself

FRANKAQ: make it a boy....playin with a doll he's age 3/4 and he's alone and his play and fantasy with the doll are private and his and are influenced by the roles and ideas floated around him...so he's maybe playing daddy and the doll is mommy...

FRANKAQ: and this is all his...he's alone...and it is in that time that he plays and fantasizes that this 'core' i'm speaking of develops...he forms his own reaction to the doll....his own feelings...his own thoughts...they may be a combo of other roles and thoughts...

FRANKAQ: but he mixes it up himself

FRANKAQ: and it becomes his...

FRANKAQ: NOW....

FRANKAQ: in walks Mom or Dad...or Aunt Betty

FRANKAQ: and brings all the weight of 'boy playing with doll' to the forefront

FRANKAQ: lots of conflict

FRANKAQ: lots of pressure

FRANKAQ: how does the boy respond?

FRANKAQ: in any number of ways

FRANKAQ: he can never pick up a doll again

FRANKAQ: he can be very determined to never put one down again

QBC 101: lol

FRANKAQ: am i right?

QBC 101: sure . . . or he can become so terrified of dolls that despite never picking one up again he fixates on them and thinks of nothing all day long but them and asking himself what terrible thing may be inside of him that drove him to pick up that one doll so many years ago

QBC 101: one of the questions in his mind being of course "does this mean i'm homosexual?"

QBC 101: so at puberty or later when the memory comes back to him and brings that question with it then he examines his feelings and discovers the same-sex love potential that all people have within them although so many do not discover it

FRANKAQ: so this is the core i'm speakin of

FRANKAQ: and how it forms and develops is only a blur to me but i think it does

QBC 101: what i am feeling here though is . . .

QBC 101: if the word that Aunt Betty screams at him or that she has in her mind and silently written all over her face is

QBC 101: "homosexual"

QBC 101: then he grows up to love men only

QBC 101: but if she just screams "queer" and does not really care whether he's "bisexual" or "homosexual" then he might love both

FRANKAQ: well the extremes are 'conform' or 'rebel'

there is however a wide spectrum

FRANKAQ: the boy at age 3/4 does not have the ability to fully rebel

FRANKAQ: maybe he can rebel internally

QBC 101: ok but what i am asking/saying is

QBC 101: this boy's ability to love others, or more accurately to express his love for them in a sexual manner, is shaped by either rebellion or conformity to the labels he is threatened with

QBC 101: and if "homosexual" is presented as a real category and "bisexual" is presented more as a cop-out then that has an impact on what he becomes

FRANKAQ: well it is why 'choice' is so evasive because there are billions of choices

FRANKAQ: all in this area where we have no memory

FRANKAQ: we only see those 'conform' or 'rebel' choices now as suppositions

QBC 101: but it is scary being in a world where 99% of the people around me have no memory of their choices and I DO HAVE MEMORY

FRANKAQ: well of that particular choice you do

QBC 101: it is very weird and hard to accept that others cannot explain WHY

QBC 101: and by their definitions i would be "straight" b/c that is what i initially (supposedly "naturally") started out as

QBC 101: but see i can EXPLAIN why i initially started out that way

QBC 101: b/c i was not aware of anything else, i was not aware that sexual desire was a feeling that people of the same sex were capable of feeling for each other

QBC 101: i was told that the opposite sex was all that was available to me and so i chose from among the opposite sex only because i did not know i had any other options

QBC 101: then eventually like so many others altho in a different way than most of them i finally discovered there were other options

FRANKAQ: you speak directly to my statement that "There is no choice because they say there is none."

QBC 101: oh yes ABSOLUTELY yes that is so true i must write it down somewhere

FRANKAQ: thats not the right wording it's in "On Choosing A Homosexual Lifestyle"

QBC 101: well i like it best the way you have just worded it NOW

FRANKAQ: and they know that if these options/choices are presented to children they will make them

QBC 101: yes

FRANKAQ: this is what scares the shit out of them the most

QBC 101: yes

FRANKAQ: and you are the living example

FRANKAQ: lol

QBC 101: and so others when they reach puberty or whatever age at which they learn who to be attracted to discover different options than i did . . .

QBC 101: but this would mean then

QBC 101: that a homosexual has not discovered that the opposite sex is an option?

FRANKAQ: that by that time THEIR 'inner core' has already been corrupted and for whatever reasons YOURS was not

QBC 101: i just simply recognized that there were other options

FRANKAQ: and your 'core' was independent enough still to act upon them

QBC 101: the only thing that made it independent was that i was able to TRUST that the options were all REAL

QBC 101: when people think that something is not an option it is because they keep questioning incessantly whether it really is one instead of just going with it and TRUSTING that the option is there

QBC 101: when people are afraid of the possibilities within them they cannot trust that any other options are open and their inability to trust forecloses all options except the one they are most afraid of b/c that is the one whose existence they have all too much trust in

QBC 101: and thus the only way anyone can choose to change their sexual preference is if they are on excellent terms with the one they already have and are merely choosing to explore other options out of adventurousness and not trying to run away from FEAR

QBC 101: FEAR is something no one can run away from because if you have FEAR then that FEAR shuts down all other option but itself until you have nothing else but to face it and become whatever you fear most because at that point that is the ONLY WAY you have left to overcome the fear that rules your life and make your life your own and liveable again

FRANKAQ: it is 'someone' always making these choices

FRANKAQ: and that 'someone' is always unique

QBC 101: if i were for whatever reason to have sex with a homosexual of the opposite sex or a heterosexual of the same sex, this is what i would say to them:

QBC 101: I am going to enjoy this. And I trust that you will be able to find something enjoyable too if you are bothering to do this with me at all. But the EXTENT to which you enjoy it is for you to choose, and you must choose only for the sake of your own happiness and not mine, because I can never know for sure how much you enjoyed it anyway so it does not matter to ME. You are the only one who can know how much you enjoyed it and so you are the only one to whom it can matter how much you really enjoyed it.

QBC 101: people should not fuss over whether they are officially willing to call themselves "attracted" or not

QBC 101: "attraction" is not some mysterious THING that people have to "discover" before they can allow themselves to have sex with someone. it is only a question of "do you choose to enjoy this moment being sexual with this person or not?"

QBC 101: they should just relax and enjoy the moment and not WORRY about some mysterious THING called "attraction" or "non-attraction" or "gay" or "straight" because their mysterious THING that they believe in does not even matter. enjoyment is all that matters

QBC 101: because until you get beyond all this fear and worry you will always be foreclosing your own choices by being too anxious and unable to trust in the existence of multiple options

QBC 101: relaxing and enjoying the moment is what most people are so very BAD at doing

I think it is evident that  Dante and Dragoon both jumped the gun when they proclaimed that homosexuality isnt a choice or that change is impossible... if i am not allowed to speak on this topic becuz i am not homosexual... then i will let the homosexuals speak for themselves and prove my point.  

Guns

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It wouldnt fit in the last post so i had to make a separate post...

Myths About

Queer by Choice People

In our efforts to raise awareness of queer by choice issues, we've found a number of recurring wrong assumptions about what queer by choice people are usually like. We've put together the list below to try to correct the misunderstandings.

Myth #1: We must be homophobic and ashamed of being queer.

Reality: Most of us are very happy about being queer

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I will have to retype what I said earlier, as i didnt get to see any posts answering what I typed.

I believe that it is obviously genetic, but that it is an inherent flaw in some ways because it negates the instinct for animal procreation in humans. This means that it is more of a hinderance biologically in my personal opinion.

I also believe those who are christians, and sacrifice their passions for Lord are doing a great honor to him. I think this statement turns people off, but dont all christians have to sacrifice some sort of passion or lust within themselves in order to serve a greater goal for God? We all have these lusts, it just happens that people who tend to be homosexuals have the lust for those of the same sex. This shouldnt be treated as a horrible hex, but as a temptation to conquer for christians.  I find it as a glorious badge of honor for those that can do this, and those that cant still their passions, I totally understand why. I have my own problems, and I fail in easing thoe lusts all the time, so what right do I have to judge? This is just my opinion though guys.

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I will have to retype what I said earlier, as i didnt get to see any posts answering what I typed.

I believe that it is obviously genetic, but that it is an inherent flaw in some ways because it negates the instinct for animal procreation in humans. This means that it is more of a hinderance biologically in my personal opinion.

I also believe those who are christians, and sacrifice their passions for Lord are doing a great honor to him. I think this statement turns people off, but dont all christians have to sacrifice some sort of passion or lust within themselves in order to serve a greater goal for God? We all have these lusts, it just happens that people who tend to be homosexuals have the lust for those of the same sex. This shouldnt be treated as a horrible hex, but as a temptation to conquer for christians.  I find it as a glorious badge of honor for those that can do this, and those that cant still their passions, I totally understand why. I have my own problems, and I fail in easing thoe lusts all the time, so what right do I have to judge? This is just my opinion though guys.

What's the flaw if our species isn't dependent on everyone procreating? It isn't some inherent flaw. It's a circumstance that can lead to endangering a species, but for our species it is no problem.
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Gunwounds has the amazing ability to talk to himself.

Well when the forums get quiet... people complain about not having any controversy... and make up stupid threads like "Post what you feel" .... or "Say something Controversial".  I am simply providing some information that people may have not seen or considerd before... and perhaps starting up a controversial debate... which was Othermans original intent i believe.  A genuine controversial thread instead of a "make-belief" controversial thread.

Showing how people can choose to be homosexual does not negate the fact that there may be people who had not chosen to be homosexual. Just to point that out.

Well first i needed to show that people claiming that it is impossible to choose were giving fallacious claims.  Before i can even start claiming that homosexuality is a choice i first have to disprove glaring false claims that Dante and Dragoon brought up earlier, such as "There is no way in Hell someone can choose to be gay".   Secondly, after showing that people can choose their sexuality, and after closer examination of people's claims to have chosen to be gay... it seems its not so "uncontrollable"  after all.  If some people can choose their sexuality... then it would seem that at some point we are all bisexual and are able to make the decision... perhaps not dramatically in one go.. but thru millions of small decisions.  This seems to explain sexuality a bit better than calling someone a dog incapable of humping someone's leg.  Sure the actual ACT of sex may be uncontrollable... but you definately are able to choose WHO you do it with and who you want to romance.

I will have to retype what I said earlier, as i didnt get to see any posts answering what I typed.

I believe that it is obviously genetic, but that it is an inherent flaw in some ways because it negates the instinct for animal procreation in humans. This means that it is more of a hinderance biologically in my personal opinion.

I also believe those who are christians, and sacrifice their passions for Lord are doing a great honor to him. I think this statement turns people off, but dont all christians have to sacrifice some sort of passion or lust within themselves in order to serve a greater goal for God? We all have these lusts, it just happens that people who tend to be homosexuals have the lust for those of the same sex. This shouldnt be treated as a horrible hex, but as a temptation to conquer for christians.  I find it as a glorious badge of honor for those that can do this, and those that cant still their passions, I totally understand why. I have my own problems, and I fail in easing thoe lusts all the time, so what right do I have to judge? This is just my opinion though guys.

      Before i reply i just wanted to say,  Dont discuss judging or homophobia in this thread please... nobody here has anything against homosexuals. I believe all of mankind is corrupt... so one corrupt homosexual is not going to offend me anymore than a corrupt heterosexual.  So lets focus on the issue of whether it is controllable or uncontrollable, and not bring up irrelevant aspects of homophobia or judgement ok?  Thanks.

     Now to reply to your statement.  First off, Things can be gentic and still be a choice.  We come from our genes... so everything about us is genetic.  So we cannot stop there, "genetic" is not a suitable standalone definition, we must go further.  Genetically you are designed to WANT to eat.. but you can CHOOSE what to eat.   Genetically you are designed to WANT to have sex... but you can CHOOSE with who.  So the fact that you are calling it genetic is pretty irrelevant... the real question is .... is it a genetic trait that prevents us from choosing? Or is it a genetic trait that allows us to have choice?  To address to the moral issue you brought up, the problem with ascribing homosexuality as a genetic trait that prevents choice (such as skin color or gender) is that it removes it from the realm of morality.  Blacks, women, etc cannot change their race/sex ... so if god ordained their skin color/gender  a sin.... then they could not do anything about it.  If homosexuality is the same way and if homosexual are born homosexual and cannot change.... then calling it a sin is pointless. So if you want to take the stance of christianity, you must be careful not to label homosexuality as a genetic trait that prevents choice.  Once again let me restate that calling something genetic is pretty redundant since everything about us is genetic.  The issue is whether something is controllable or uncontrollable.

     Calling homosexuality a genetic trait that prevents choice is insulting to homosexuals who dont feel that they are mere animals living out an uncontrollable primitive Id instinct like some beast.  The homosexuals who support "Queer by Choice" state that calling homosexuality a genetic trait that is uncontrollable de-humanizes homosexuals and makes them seem like uncontrollable canines.  Being human means you can make choices.  I didnt like greens as a child.... but now i love them.  Tastes can change.  Sexual tastes can change.  People do choose their sexuality...perhaps not dramatically in one decision (although some have)....but gradually over time it can happen ...especially when growing up.  That AOL convo where the webmaster is chatting with the owner... has some valuable points i think... you may not just wake up one day and say "i choose to be gay" (although some have) .. but rather over time all the millions of small decisions you make on a day to day basis indirectly form the overall choice.  Therefore,  homosexuality must be in the realm of choice. 

reminds me of an old saying:

Be Careful With Your Thoughts, They Become Words

Be Careful With Your Words, They Become Actions

Be Careful With Your Actions, They Become Habits

Be Careful With Your Habits, They Become Character

Be Careful With Your Character, It Becomes Your Destiny.............

Gunwounds

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ok, just making sure. I wonder, if homosexuality is a choice and nothing else, what would you expect the success rate of sometimes intense therapies/techniques to change one's sexual orientation to be? Some of these techniques can include aversion therapy (including electrical shock), counseling, brain surgery, spiritual therapy, etc.

While you're thinking of that, consider this: how is it possible for child psychologists to accurately determine a child's orientation at 5 years of age? How does choice fit into that?

Yet another question: how is it possible for a homosexual's identical twin separated at birth to have a 55% chance of being a homosexual? Shouldn't the twin's chance be like anyone else - that is, relatively 5%? And if you're suspicious of the lack of 100% of the twins becoming gay, consider genetic penetrance before you bring it up (much like type 1 diabetes).

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You and Acriku are the PRP fiends, homogenizing all discussions in PRP. I would sooner watch Fox News than post here again. We have a new Hannity and Colmes on this page.

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You and Acriku are the PRP fiends, homogenizing all discussions in PRP. I would sooner watch Fox News than post here again. We have a new Hannity and Colmes on this page.

You know, I've always loved your to-the-side comments on who you dislike, but damn this is getting old.

Anyway, I think we've come with progress in this thread. If anything, for those readers who haven't thought of the questions and answers brought to the table. It isn't always about winning a debate, it's about learning through its course  :P

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  • 3 weeks later...

Alrighty... well i am back (removed my old OT space holder post... safe to say i got the job!)

Ok well, about your last post...(sorry took so long been busy with Oblivion, and sorta lost interest in this thread for awhile)... but i just wanted to reply since i said i would.

Basically i would expect such therapies to fail as we definately are rooted in our behavior once we get accustomed to it.  Getting someone to change from being homosexual once they got used to it habitually, would be like someone telling me i cant play computer games anymore. No matter how much i get tortured to dislike video games... once i taste the pleasure of those electronic delights i am hooked.  And i would not expect such negative punishment therapies to work because i wouldnt want somebody telling me to change how i reach orgasm either.

Also as far as child psychologists determining a child's sexual preference.. thats a bit hokey to me.  Not meaning to offend and psy majors out there.... its just that such few children have undergone such testing and such a test would be very uncertain.  It would not and could not account for all the changes that happen post puberty.  And it would not acocunt for Adults changing sides either.  Again i refer back to the statistics of psychologists claims.  I mean show me the sampling size, the percentages, the standard deviations, the data graphs, i mean.. saying you can determine a child's sexual preference is pretty boastful claim IMO and should be backed up hardcore, which unfortunately i doubt it is.

And for the identical twins.. the same arguement applies... just how many twins have been tracked and tested?  How detailed were the accounts?  Did the twins describe whether they felt it was a choice... was the gay twin hetero at first? Did they experiment?... what is the sampling size?  How many twins are on file with this research?  etc etc. More info is needed for these claims.  However i could see the claim being made that since identical twins are genetically identical... they would also respond to stimuli simularly, therefore if one twin liked a certain facial/body pattern/shape then one could assume that the other would respond to similar stimuli as well.  But if the percentage truly was 55% and not 100% then that seems alot like choice to me...  yes/no = 50/50 chance.  ;D  However i doubt the percentage given is accurate anyways.

Why am i giving you a hard time about data?  Because, I am using detailed testimony from grown gay adults as to why they are gay... taking it from the horses mouth.  Whereas you are using psychologist claims about 5 yr olds, and  percentages of identical twins of whom we know nothing about.  Thats why i am saying your claims should be held to a greater burden of data because it sounds somewhat unreliable and in some cases boastful on the psychologists part.

Guns

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

Hi all,

This is my first post on these forums ... they were brought to my attention by a friend. I have spent hours enjoying the various philosophical and other debates, sometimes wanting to reply, but usually someone would come up with my viewpoint on the subject, so I felt a reply from the newcomer would be redundant.

In this case however, I feel there are still things to be said. I realize that it is an old thread, and if bringing it back to life is a bad thing to do, I apologize in advance.

Gunwounds, I will start by saying that I think I understand your viewpoints, even if I do not agree with them. You argue from the perspective of a Christian who believes in evolution - God is the Creator of all things, but he did not make it all in the six days of the Bible. (If I'm wrong, correct me.)  As such, you would believe that everything in the universe has its purpose. Everything is designed by God to make sense in some way. Homosexuality to you cannot be a biological phenomenon, because God designed the penis to fit into the vagina.

I think this blinds you to arguments, and even evidence, to the contrary. Most homosexuals never wanted to be gay, and never perceived it as a choice, no matter how many people you can quote who say that it was. They just realized at one point that they would never be happy with someone of the opposite sex. What do you do when that happens? Do you stay with them? Does staying with your opposite-sex partner make you heterosexual? I think you will agree that they are homosexual, no matter who they sleep with. If the "Romantic Feelings" they have are for persons of the same sex, they are homosexual. Whether they looked up to same-sex older siblings/friends as children or not.

As for homosexuality in animals being a fallacy - this is another example of you being blind to reality. Rams prove their superiority by banging their heads together, not their nads. I agree that alpha male baboons mount lower-ranked males as a show of superiority, but in rams this does not seem to be the case. It does not explain this either: http://www.egale.ca/index.asp?lang=E&menu=12&item=1237

Rather a long article, I know, but it states clearly, if not explicitly, that there was a case of lesbian swans in Boston. Now to me, this contradicts both the idea of homosexuality among animals being a question of dominance, and your theory that homosexuality is the result of some misinterpretation of feelings by pre-pubescent humans. Will these swans have fantasized of sex with eachother and masturbated to it? I am not familiar enough with swan anatomy to say that it is impossible, but I consider it highly unlikely.

So what if homosexuality really IS a biologically determined phenomenon, and not a choice influenced by misinterpreted feelings? How do I explain the people who say they felt they did have a choice?

Simple. By a phenomenon that is largely ignored, probably because it is too confusing for some to grasp: Bisexuality.

If homosexuality is caused by a different balance of hormones in the womb, then it stands to reason that it is not a binary black-and-white question. Not everyone will be strictly homosexual or heterosexual; there are gray areas. These people will sometimes display a preference for one sex, then develop one for the other, and sometimes they have no preference at all.

The reason that the way you think offends so many people, and makes Dante wash his hands of the subject, and hurls Dragoon into a rage of righteous fury, is that you are laying the blame for homosexuality (as far as anyone needs to be blamed for it) with the homosexual. You imply that their situation would not have existed if they had not made the mistake of fantasizing about men when they were 13 years old, and perhaps that they could change and become "cured" if they put their minds to it. To people who have tried to "cure" themselves for years, and failed (yes, these are the Pure Gays if you will, and those who do get "cured" are bisexuals), this can only give offense.

I understand that for someone who believes the universe is designed, it is hard to believe that homosexuality fits into it all. However, you are not a fundamentalist who believes everything the Bible says. You can think for yourself, and you should not have that much trouble believing that perhaps God has a plan for homosexuals, as he has a plan with the universe that none of us should presume to just explain out of hand. From my experience, the homosexual men I know have always been more understanding towards my feelings as a woman than any man was, whereas at the same time they seemed to know what made men tick. There may be a hidden purpose there.

I guess what I'm trying to say is - just because you can't explain it, does not mean it's not true. Nobody is trying to make homosexuality look mysterious, because it's not. It has biological causes, which I agree are a little hazy, but who cares? The effects are clear. You don't care to know exactly how all your household appliances work, do you? What's important is that they make your coffee and wash your clothes. Same with homosexuality. It's not mysterious - it's just something you have not looked into enough with enough prior knowledge to draw any educated conclusions. And why should you? I know I don't. When homosexuals say they have no choice in being homosexual, I have no reason not to believe them. And I don't see why you shouldn't.

Regards,

Aylene

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Hi all,

I think this blinds you to arguments, and even evidence, to the contrary. Most homosexuals never wanted to be gay, and never perceived it as a choice, no matter how many people you can quote who say that it was. They just realized at one point that they would never be happy with someone of the opposite sex. What do you do when that happens? Do you stay with them? Does staying with your opposite-sex partner make you heterosexual? I think you will agree that they are homosexual, no matter who they sleep with. If the "Romantic Feelings" they have are for persons of the same sex, they are homosexual. Whether they looked up to same-sex older siblings/friends as children or not.

You seemed to omit much of my viewpoints which made me look much more inflexible than i really am.. and also you stole one of my viewpoints form me and claimed it as your own, without acknowledging the fact that i stated it.  That was annoying.  But I'll get over it.

Anyways, What you failed to address is that i said that people do choose to be gay.. and i showed many testimonials... this shows that there are people who will admit that they chose to be gay.  Also there are two ways to choose to be gay.  You can choose overnight like many people have... or you can choose through millions of small decisions throughout your whole life that made you what you are today.  Remember when i said:

Be Careful With Your Thoughts, They Become Words

Be Careful With Your Words, They Become Actions

Be Careful With Your Actions, They Become Habits

Be Careful With Your Habits, They Become Character

Be Careful With Your Character, It Becomes Your Destiny.............

Well.. i honestly believe that.  And when you are a small child growing up there are many small decisions you make that influence you as you mature.  Some things may be subliminal some things may be obvious.  However, you are not some random occurence.  Yes genetics says that your body releases biological factors that make you hungry... but you still choose what you want to eat.  Genetics says you must breathe... but you can walk by a cup of java mocha coffee and take in some deep breaths to enjoy the smell.  You have genetics as part of your being but you still CHOOSE.  Thats what seperates us from animals.  And thats why animals arent gay.  They may exhibit gay "behavior" which we humans mistake for gayness when the animals are really just showing dominance OR.... the animals may be misled by scents or body language.  Many factors are present and to mystify it and say oh look at those two gay rams humping each other.. they must be in love and they must be homosexual... is ridiculous.  The rams could simply have accidentally discovered an alternative way to release dopamine in their brains (ie humping another ram) Thereby being purely chemical.  Just like dogs hump legs.  Why does a dog hump a leg?  Because the first time the dog jumped up on someone's leg to greet them, his penis probabaly banged up against your leg and got him aroused.  Then the dog thougth hey that feels good...let me hump that to release more dopamine in my brain.  Then you end up with a leg-humping addicted dog.  Easy way to explain the rams.  Perhaps when fighting one ram bumped his penis up against the other ram and decided to try to complete it and go to orgasm.  Sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one.  Accidental stimulation makes much more sense than some complicated theory that Rams secretly have a gay community.

lesbian swans?  Unlikely.. most likely it is one swan having a "nurse-maid" instinct to the other swan and desiring to help defend the nest.  Much simpler  than the swans being two love-addicted lesbos.  I mean really.  Think about what you're saying for gods sake.

Furthermore, I am the one (not you) who first stated that everyone could be bisexual at birth and that by choice one could tip the scales and condition oneself one way or the other.  We are conditioned with dopamine in our brains to love whatever triggers that... and therefore if we positively reinforce ourselves with one type of stimulus when we are developing we could manipulate our sexuality.  What if you were some sex-pet of some king  thousands of years ago. What if you were raised as his slave sex-boy.  You would only know man-sex and if he was gentle with you and made your achieve orgasm ...you would enjoy it and grow accustomed to it.

Since our bodies are chemically induced meatbags.. it is very easy to explain our behavior than to attempt to say that there is some mysterious gay-factor that we cannot control and that some people are gay-robots that cant help themselves.  Many gays are offended when people say hmosexuality isnt a choice.  Because many of them choose to be gay... and to say that they didnt.. is to dehumanize them.  Many gays chose ot be gay and are proud of their decision.  Perhaps once they make the abrupt decision to turn gay or perhaps after making millions of small decisions that brought them to the avenue of gayness.... maybe then they cannot help themselves.. because by then its too late.  By the time you positively reinforce your sexuality to a certain dopamine fix... you are just as addicted as someone on heroine.  And no i dont expect homosexuals to be "cured" because i know that once you choose to reinforce your orgasm association to a certain source, its extremely hard to change it because it feels so good.  Because orgasms are one of the strongest natural highs in nature.  I chose to be heterosexual and there is no way i could change due me having reinforced my orgasm source to that of the opposite sex.  You choose to be homosexual, you choose to be heterosexual, and if you are bisexual it means you are able to let go of all inhibitions (heterosexual's homophobia, homosexual's pride/arrogance) and experience your dopamine high with anyone.. be it male or female.  That doesnt mean i believe bisexuality is correct. I believe some degree of inhibition is good/healthy.

Yes sexuality is a choice. Either it can be made overnight or it can be made through millions of small decisions that you were unaware of. 

Peace.

Guns

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You seemed to omit much of my viewpoints which made me look much more inflexible than i really am.. and also you stole one of my viewpoints form me and claimed it as your own, without acknowledging the fact that i stated it.  That was annoying.  But I'll get over it.

Anyways, What you failed to address is that i said that people do choose to be gay.. and i showed many testimonials... this shows that there are people who will admit that they chose to be gay.  Also there are two ways to choose to be gay.  You can choose overnight like many people have... or you can choose through millions of small decisions throughout your whole life that made you what you are today.

I'm sorry if it seems that I omitted viewpoints of yours that were important to your argument. I think I addressed most of them, but it may be I missed some here and there. As for claiming a viewpoint for my own - I am aware that the "Romantic Feelings" term comes from you, and put it in specifically in order to make it clear that my viewpoints were similar to yours on that point (i.e. that it is who you have "Romantic Feelings" for that defines whether you are homo, hetero, or possibly bi). I never stated that people, being bisexual at birth, conditioned themselves into becoming either homo or heterosexual. I honestly don't know where you read that in my post.

About people who said they choose to be gay - what they have chosen is to give in to their feelings for the same sex. It is indeed true that a gay person can choose to have a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, and it may even work. That does not mean they might not be happier with someone of the same sex. So yes, there is a choice ... in behavior. Not in nature. The gay testimonials do not convince me much because some of these people may be bisexual, and others may refer to the lifestyle as opposed to their actual sexuality.

You make a good point about the rams, but the swans seem odd to me. Nurse-swans? Then why was there no male to fertilize the eggs? To me, it seems these two swans found someone they considered attractive (or who released some type of hormone... dopamine is it? in their brain) and it started the chain reaction in their bodies that prompted them to fill a nest with eggs. I don't think swans think in terms of male and female. If they think at all, it will be in terms of "compatible" or "incompatible". They're not love-addicted, any more than heterosexual swans. They just want to procreate, and the swan that registered in their brain as "compatible" happened to be of the same sex.

I honestly don't know why dogs hump legs. I've actually had a female dog hump my leg once, which was odd, because she obviously did not have a penis. Can't say I know enough about that to draw a conclusion, but I get your point that the male dogs who do this have probably found a way to release sexual tension, and it is no sign of leggosexuality or whatever in them.

So yeah. I get what you're saying, that our choices separate us from animals. I wouldn't word it that way myself - I'd say animals don't think about consequences the way humans do, and therefore just make the choice that benefits them most in the short term.

When a person who calls himself gay gets offended at the idea there's no choice, I get the idea that he was proud to make the choice to come out, that he feels there is a choice between being closeted and miserable, and out-of-the-closet and happy. (Or just the gay way and the straight way if they're bi, of course, which you can never tell.) Animals don't have this choice, because they don't do closeted-and-miserable. As I said, they don't think in terms of male and female, or gay and straight, or acceptable and unacceptable.

The combined facts that

1) The vast majority of gay people does say they did not have a choice

and

2) there are bisexual people who, unlike gay people, do have a choice,

and

3) there is a choice of sorts between coming out and staying closeted

convince me that homosexuality is indeed a biological phenomenon. The evidence with animals supports this, at least from my point of view, but I can imagine that you're sceptic towards it.

Peace right back at you :)

Aylene

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Homosexuality may not be choice, but acting upon those desires is a choice.

This former homosexual can help you become a heterosexual again, with a little therapy of hugging on his lap and beating pillows with a tennis racket.

CNN Video

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