the nooble atreides

[pearlmen]

well if atr just play with atr bike n inf or sard not enough to kill hark or ordos(expecailly ordos)  if u fight with them in a good place(like inf rock or behind ur harviester or attack when their formation not fixed) you can win battle with ur buggies. well if you think you really awesome bike controller urself, keep try it.

by the way i have many played try my atr without mino because of i wanted to show ppl that sandbuggy are not weak, but it depend on players.

but yes. you need to use mino or elites essential for late atr play.(you know you have ever seen advanced carryall abuse ;)

[darkd3th]

I already see that people are taking my advice about exchanging super weapons.  Which is great becuz it increasees your superweapon capabilities by 50%.  Teamwork is the true crux of this game... there is no "flaw" in emperor only flaws in your teamwork.

    The thing is that it would take a lot of time to form a stratedy to work this into a BO. Late game it would help but I think you'd have to at least keep 1 main subhouse (fremen or sards) just to make it to the late game. I do agree with you gun that it'd be the way to take the game to the next level but you'd need a good freind or a good partner that'll be always on when you're on to practice and do that with.

    I've also thought about tradeing off buildings ever since the straegdy that emprworm had made for knife fight with 5k. Does anyone remmber that where you're trading buildings with your partner and refs and end up have a huge army that no one would be able to fend off unless they were doing something simmilar, its the perfect example that teamwork is the next way to go.

[Apollyon]

MrDozy and I used to do this ages ago -- trade palaces, subhouses (four of them) an atreides fac for minos, hangars for gunships and drones etc. You need to organise it well with your partner beforehand, and it only really kicks in mid-game. You also have to make sure you don't overspend on new buildings for your ally etc while sacrificing ground units. If you get it right it's extremely difficult to beat.

[GUNWOUNDS]

    The thing is that it would take a lot of time to form a stratedy to work this into a BO. Late game it would help but I think you'd have to at least keep 1 main subhouse (fremen or sards) just to make it to the late game. I do agree with you gun that it'd be the way to take the game to the next level but you'd need a good freind or a good partner that'll be always on when you're on to practice and do that with.

     I've also thought about tradeing off buildings ever since the straegdy that emprworm had made for knife fight with 5k. Does anyone remmber that where you're trading buildings with your partner and refs and end up have a huge army that no one would be able to fend off unless they were doing something simmilar, its the perfect example that teamwork is the next way to go.

MrDozy and I used to do this ages ago -- trade palaces, subhouses (four of them) an atreides fac for minos, hangars for gunships and drones etc. You need to organise it well with your partner beforehand, and it only really kicks in mid-game. You also have to make sure you don't overspend on new buildings for your ally etc while sacrificing ground units. If you get it right it's extremely difficult to beat.

Yea your right the problem is you need a dedicated partner.  But unfortunately the current trend is to mix up teams everygame.  To take this game to the next level with multi-house strats involves dedicated teams/friends such as the jeff/spaz  gun/drnknmsta  newlords/cbrick  combos from days of old. Since this isnt as common this level of teamwork may continue to go untapped, except for the occasional nights when two people decide to try it.

[jeff2429]

Gun always makes unbalanced teams. ;)

But unfortunately the current trend is to mix up teams everygame.

Every game is about after 5 or more games. :P

[GUNWOUNDS]

Gun always makes unbalanced teams. ;)Every game is about after 5 or more games. :P

well seeing as how we play like 30 games a night or more thats still 6 team rotations.  Not bad... i mean sometimes you want a rematch so swapping every single game isnt an option.

And i know Mr Jeffy isnt talking about unfair teams seeing as how for ages he ONLY allied with Spazelord. hmmm  ;)

To be honest tho its more fun to play with someone who knows what they are doing, playing with noobs is no fun ... its actually frustrating. 

There are two forms of fair teams:

1.)  One noob + one elite vs One noob + one elite = fair but frustrating.

2.) 2 elites vs 2 elites = fair AND fun.

I'm always estactic when i get #2 ....but I never look forward to #1.

Gun

[jeff2429]

To be honest tho its more fun to play with someone who knows what they are doing

Exactly.  Spaze and I had perfected playing together for a while.  But it doesn't seem to matter now days.

[eid]

i realise hark inf seem to have about 25% more rate of fire, 10% or so more armour,

vs atr 50% more dmg per hit,25% less rate of fire and about 10% increased movement speed.. kinda making them quite balanced on paper

the snipers seem to make up or their lack of rate of fire to an extent,but then they gotta worry about f-inf screens..

hehe  guns, i'm sure i've said this somewhere before,

and theres nothing more i love than repeating myself, and reclarifying...

i want this to be a thread for House Atreides, not including subhouses,

no matter how bad you love them or 'need' them.

please keep it strictly Atreides..

ill make a subhouse thread just for you one day..!

i believe now that the bikes being priced at $300 vs the other 2 houses tier 1 @ $350

is most likely to be due to the possible fact that atr in a way 'needs' air support..

as most have noticed using atr u can make bikes constantly with drones,

on 2 refs and maybe 2 extra harvs to que wile the others are spicing it up...

inf is just enough to put atr at 0 before too long,

and most certainly has to balance between tech up and tier 1..

now theres one other thing..that probly deserves a place in game mechanics..

atr tier 1 inf seem to be the smallest per quad unit,

for a better example of what i mean...

well you guys use subs all the time right?

so try the fedaykin/warrior/worm/delay bug thing, you know what im talking about!

that is to say that atr inf have a larger inf unit(compared to feds) but similar rule that not only has a strange effect on snipers and the reload/no-move sequence..but probly some other bizzare behaviour as well..

just somethin i found...could be useful

hehe yea i loved those days where you'd keep swapping between 4(of the best)subs.. and swap yards and mix tech mid game hehehe, so many games that ppl thought we'd moved mcv over to an allys base and double team hehehehehe.  those were the days, balance wasnt an issue back then, only dev drops :)

still need some solution for 3v3+ games tho... :)

[Apollyon]

"i believe now that the bikes being priced at $300 vs the other 2 houses tier 1 @ $350

is most likely to be due to the possible fact that atr in a way 'needs' air support.."

It's because they are worse than the other two equivalent units. As I said.

"atr tier 1 inf seem to be the smallest per quad unit,

for a better example of what i mean...

well you guys use subs all the time right?

so try the fedaykin/warrior/worm/delay bug thing, you know what im talking about!

that is to say that atr inf have a larger inf unit(compared to feds) but similar rule that not only has a strange effect on snipers and the reload/no-move sequence..but probly some other bizzare behaviour as well..

just somethin i found...could be useful"

Uhhh. Huh?

[GUNWOUNDS]

i realise hark inf seem to have about 25% more rate of fire, 10% or so more armour,

vs atr 50% more dmg per hit,25% less rate of fire and about 10% increased movement speed.. kinda making them quite balanced on paper

the snipers seem to make up or their lack of rate of fire to an extent,but then they gotta worry about f-inf screens..

hehe  guns, i'm sure i've said this somewhere before,

and theres nothing more i love than repeating myself, and reclarifying...

i want this to be a thread for House Atreides, not including subhouses,

no matter how bad you love them or 'need' them.

please keep it strictly Atreides..

ill make a subhouse thread just for you one day..!

i believe now that the bikes being priced at $300 vs the other 2 houses tier 1 @ $350

is most likely to be due to the possible fact that atr in a way 'needs' air support..

as most have noticed using atr u can make bikes constantly with drones,

on 2 refs and maybe 2 extra harvs to que wile the others are spicing it up...

inf is just enough to put atr at 0 before too long,

and most certainly has to balance between tech up and tier 1..

now theres one other thing..that probly deserves a place in game mechanics..

atr tier 1 inf seem to be the smallest per quad unit,

for a better example of what i mean...

well you guys use subs all the time right?

so try the fedaykin/warrior/worm/delay bug thing, you know what im talking about!

that is to say that atr inf have a larger inf unit(compared to feds) but similar rule that not only has a strange effect on snipers and the reload/no-move sequence..but probly some other bizzare behaviour as well..

just somethin i found...could be useful

hehe yea i loved those days where you'd keep swapping between 4(of the best)subs.. and swap yards and mix tech mid game hehehe, so many games that ppl thought we'd moved mcv over to an allys base and double team hehehehehe.  those were the days, balance wasnt an issue back then, only dev drops :)

still need some solution for 3v3+ games tho... :)

Eido you just dont listen.  Listen carefully.

Hark infantry has EXACT same ARMOR as Atreides infantry.

Hark infantry has EXACT same bullets as Atreides infantry.

Hark infantry fires two of those bullets in the same time it takes Atreides infantry to fire one.  Therefore Hark infantry has DOUBLE firepower.

An atr bike kills a hark buzz in 6 shots

An atr bike kills an ordos dusty in 6 shots

An atr bike kills an atr bike in 5 shots.

An atr bike therefore has 20% less armor than the other tier one vehicles as it dies in one less shot.

Therefore atr infantry and atr bikes SUCK.  That is why atr bike is $300 bucks instead of $350.  Its cheaper cuz it has less armor and no special ability which means it ....SUCKS.  Plain and simple.  I dont know where you get this "atr tier 1 units are balanced on paper"  bullcrap.  An atr tier one army (bikes and men) will get owned by a hark army half its size.

Example:

10 buzz with two guns = 20 dmg value   

20 hark inf with "twice as fast" firing ability = 40 dmg value

Total = 60 dmg value per salvo

versus

10 bikes with 1 gun = 10 dmg value

20 atr infantry with standard firing ability = 20 dmg value

Total = 30 dmg value per salvo.

60 vs 30. Plus that doesnt even factor in the buzz ability to squish men and its auto-fire ability.  Its a no brainer.   You must have Minos/Geese and snipers to back yourself up.

And you want tips on how to play atr without discussing subhouses... fine... easy enough... make bikes, inf, and then make 2 goose for every 5 minos to prevent carryalls from stealing them.  Make around 20 drones then switch to ornis..... then order 6 sonics from the starport, also make 10 carryalls and 10 minos and just hold them in the air to use in deployment of army support or base invasion...at the same time be sure to make an atr superweapon for yourself and your ally.   BAM perfect atr.

Oh and all infantry go into a formation of 5 per quad so i have no freaking clue what your talking about in terms of size of units.  I think you accidentally injected crack in your forehead or something.

Gun

[GUNWOUNDS]

Also i want to re-emphasize the tier one vehicle abilities.

Buzzsaw

Cost = 350

Special ability = Auto-fire

Special ability = Can squish men

Special trait = Two guns

Perks = Doesnt slow down when damaged

Cons = Slower than Dusty & Buggy, cannot realistically benefit from rank system.

Dustscout

Cost = 350

Special ability = Self-Heal

Special trait = Faster than Buzzsaw

Perks = can realistically take advantage of ranking system (lvl 1, 2, 3)

Cons = Slower than Buggy, Less firepower than Buzz, Has to stop to shoot, Slows down when damaged.

Sandtrike

Cost = 300

Special ability = NONE

Special trait = Faster than Dustscout

Perks = Doesnt slow down when damaged, Cheaper than Dusty & Buzz

Cons = Lowest amount of armor, Less firepower than Buzz, has to stop to shoot, cannot realistically take advantage of rank system.

As you can see the bike has the worst pros vs cons.  The only TRUE benefit of having bikes is that they are faster than dustscouts and dont slow down when damaged, and becuz its 50 bucks cheaper ....every 8th Bike is FREE.  However the game is all about firepower , so the speed is irrelevant and the free bike you get after every 8th one doesnt balance the armor or firepower deficiency.  Hence minos/goose/ snipers are a MUST.  Basically atr has to upgrade and tech up in situations where hark and ordos wouldnt have to.

Now if the atr infantry were 25 bucks instead of 50 and if the bike were 175 instead of 300 then you might have something.

[Apollyon]

The sandbike has greater health than the dustscout, actually:

[ATTrike]

Armour = Light

Health = 1200  //was 1000

[ORDustScout]

Armour = Light

Health = 1100  //was 900

[HKBuzzsaw]

Armour = Light

Health = 1300

'Cons = Slower than Buggy'

The Dustscout is 2 points faster than the bike.

'[the bike] Doesnt slow down when damaged'

It does. But not nearly as much as the dustscout. It is certainly noticeable, though.

Also, the buzzsaw is slower to build (by 30 ticks) than the other two. Its weapons reload 10 points faster than those of the other two.

It's also worth noting that the buzzsaw rarely uses both of its weapons.

[pearlmen]

Therefore atr infantry and atr bikes SUCK.  That is why atr bike is $300 bucks instead of $350.  Its cheaper cuz it has less armor and no special ability which means it ....SUCKS.  Plain and simple.  I dont know where you get this "atr tier 1 units are balanced on paper"  bullcrap.  An atr tier one army (bikes and men) will get owned by a hark army half its size.

just curious.

well if atr bikes sux therefore atr buggy is $300, what do you think atr inf &60 even sux inf?( chemi n hark inf $50 wow)

even hark 1tier units kill all my 1tier atr units, I kill his mostly 1tier units though.(unless I went early drone n made my ground force crap :P)

I dont think atr bike and inf sux, yea I know bike have less armor than other 2units, with atr inf weak compare of chemi or hark inf. yea atr cant finish up just with bike and inf. and dont even think do that, but  nice units for protect minos and good killing isolated units(like kill trooper with a few bikes and droning) very nice. :)

[Apollyon]

"yea I know bike have less armor than other 2units"

Read my post.

Also, it looks like the coders had every intention of the HK/ATR inf being matched, since the reload time is identical in the code. The XBF animation of the ATR Inf is considerably longer than the Hark inf, though. The 'holster' to firing animation is also longer in the ATR inf, which means the hark inf always gets the first shot.

[GUNWOUNDS]

The sandbike has greater health than the dustscout, actually:

[ATTrike]

Armour = Light

Health = 1200  //was 1000

[ORDustScout]

Armour = Light

Health = 1100  //was 900

[HKBuzzsaw]

Armour = Light

Health = 1300

'Cons = Slower than Buggy'

The Dustscout is 2 points faster than the bike.

'[the bike] Doesnt slow down when damaged'

It does. But not nearly as much as the dustscout. It is certainly noticeable, though.

Also, the buzzsaw is slower to build (by 30 ticks) than the other two. Its weapons reload 10 points faster than those of the other two.

Well the armor value in the text file is weird then.... because  buzz and dusty die in 6 shots  from a bike.   And a bike dies in 5 shots from a bike.  Test it out yourself. (EDIT- see my post below for explanation)

As for the bike being slower... thats odd i will have to test it in game.  I seem to rememeber the bike being faster.  If the bike is indeed slower than that simply adds more fuel to the fire that the bike sucks.

Most likely the bike being faster is an optical illusion due to the bike not slowing down as much as the dusty when getting damaged.  A damaged bike still zips about pretty fast while a dusty slows to a crawl.  And since units are most of the time fighting and getting damaged.... that means bikes are usually faster on average than dusties.

[pearlmen]

ok, you got it apo.

I write it again like that.

bike weak itself than buzzsaw or dustscout.

my grammer still broken? ;D

[GUNWOUNDS]

NO NO NO wait i got it !

The bike does has less armor in a "fight"  ... becuz....

Get this....

Buzz takes 6 shots to die due to highest armor.

Dusty takes 6 shots to die due to regen effect letting it take one extra shot on its armor.

Bike... can only take 5 shots before dying.... doesnt have high armor like buzz or regen effect like dusty to be able to take 6 shots.

There i just solved the armor mystery.   Just goes to show those text files dont truly represent whats going on in game.

So in a fight, the bike still has 20% less armor than a dusty becuz while a dusty has less armor to begin with it can regen loss armor over the duration of a fight....and the buzz just simply has 20% more armor.

So my statements stand.  And so your comments about bike being weaker in armor is just fine pearl.

[Apollyon]

'There i just solved the armor mystery.  Just goes to show those text files dont truly represent whats going on in game.'

It was only a mystery to you. ;)

The text files represent it fine. CanSelfRepair=1. It's just simple maths.

[GUNWOUNDS]

'There i just solved the armor mystery.   Just goes to show those text files dont truly represent whats going on in game.'

It was only a mystery to you. ;)

The text files represent it fine. CanSelfRepair=1. It's just simple maths.

No .... at first glance your arguments seemed to contradict my arguments that a bike was weaker in a fight...  Its not really intuitive that self-repair would cause the dusty to survive an extra shot.  The text file is misleading.  ;)  At first glance one would think the bike is better in a fight when in fact it isnt.

[Apollyon]

Seemed pretty obvious to me. Shrug.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Seemed pretty obvious to me. Shrug.

Well you're british. 

[jeff2429]

Apo, can the text files explain why the Atr infantry cost more then the Hark infantry even though the Hark infantry are better? 

Hark infantry Cost = $50

Atr infantry Cost = $60

$10 more for what seems double the speed doesn't seem like much of a deal. :O

Is there something I'm missing? 

[Apollyon]

"can the text files explain why the Atr infantry cost more then the Hark infantry even though the Hark infantry are better?"

Yes, in that the text files reveal the reason to be that the game is coded that way. If you're looking more at the balancing of Emperor gameplay, you'd have to take the whole text files into consideration -- or look elsewhere. These, boards, say. ;)

It does indicate that the atr inf is faster, less worm-attractive, has that useless return-to-barracks thing, and larger range of sight. I'm guessing that's reason for the cost difference. You could also guess that the animators did a botch job on the XBF, which makes the ATR inf's reload rater slower than the rules files intend it to be.

It's also worth noting that the atr inf becomes greatly better than the hark inf if it gets the chance to level up. The hark inf's bonuses are far poorer.

[jeff2429]

Makes sense.  :-X

[GUNWOUNDS]

"can the text files explain why the Atr infantry cost more then the Hark infantry even though the Hark infantry are better?"

Yes, in that the text files reveal the reason to be that the game is coded that way. If you're looking more at the balancing of Emperor gameplay, you'd have to take the whole text files into consideration -- or look elsewhere. These, boards, say. ;)

It does indicate that the atr inf is faster, less worm-attractive, has that useless return-to-barracks thing, and larger range of sight. I'm guessing that's reason for the cost difference. You could also guess that the animators did a botch job on the XBF, which makes the ATR inf's reload rater slower than the rules files intend it to be.

It's also worth noting that the atr inf becomes greatly better than the hark inf if it gets the chance to level up. The hark inf's bonuses are far poorer.

VERY INTERESTING APo !

From what oyu have said it seems the developers had intended for the atr infantry to be the uber inf not the hark infantry.  But it seems due to the botched animation of the atr infantry, the hark infantry ends up with the ability to fire twice as fast....thereby allowing hark infantry to have double the firepower....ingame tests show that 20 hark inf vs 20 atr inf = 10hark inf left over and all atr inf dead.

Also u are correct that if it were possible to send atr men back to the barracks in multiplayer that atr would actually overpower hark.  I do remember a test where i took a level 3 atr infantry vs an unranked sardukar.  And the level 3 atr infantry raped the sardukar, even tho the sardukar got the first shot.  I cant imagine how powerful atr would be if you were able to send back 3 men to the barracks and be able to purchase level 3 infantry for $60 each at such a fast build rate.  Atr has so much untapped potential.