Q: on the Agony

[gowachin]

Question: should RM Mohaim have the Eyes of Ibad?

In other words... did the BG have the Water of Life ceremony before The Heretic Jessica?

Was Spice involved in the making of Reverend Mothers, before The Heretic?

[MrFlibble]

I guess, yes. Otherwise, how would they have Other Memory? I think they had addiction to spice, and concealed their eyes of Ibad by contact lenses, like the Guildsman. But I'm not sure. The concept evolved considerably throughout the novels.

[gowachin]

Thanx for the answer, MrFlibble.

I know that the BG had Reverend Mothers, and access to Other Memory, before Jessica went thru the Water of Life ceremony on Dune. I guess I'm looking for opinions on if they used melange for the Agony, before Jessica. I'm pretty sure they did... FH simply doesn't address it. It could be something he hadn't totally thought out, yet.

RM Mohaim is said to have "sparkling bird eyes" if I remember correctly... no "blue in blue" mentioned for her. And she certianly could have been wearing contacts (like Bellonda in Heretics & Chapterhouse). But, I'm thinking there may have been another substance used  before RM Ramallo and The Heretic (it's talked about in the Dune Encyclopedia).

I'm just interested in thoughts from other posters.

[driftingcloud]

But, I'm thinking there may have been another substance used.

I'd always assumed that the regular Bene Gesserit used some other process than the spice agony, because it was such a surprise to Jessica that the spice agony induced Reverend Mother activity in her. If she knew this, she might have reconsidered doing so while pregnant with Alia. I do believe a Sister as advanced as her would have been fully familiar with the process for becoming a Reverend Mother even if she was never destined for that path (or turned from it at some point). She would therefore not have suspected a ritual in a suspected primitive culture to be of any concern, or not enough to worry about until it was too late and there was no turning back. There is the dilemma between losing the Sayadinna's other memories and the possibility of creating "abominination". It's those terrible dilemmas that make the book so wonderfully fascinating for me. If you have to choose between bad and bad, which do you chose?

[Vanguard3000]

I believe all that was entailed was the transmutation of a lethal poison.  The "regular" BG would take something simply called "The Truthsayer Drug".  Mohaim, however, is aware of the Water Of Life and how it may be used to induce the Agony.

[TagDaze]

Jessica WAS a follow-up of another Fremen/BG Reverend Ma, though. The BG must've known of it before. After all, they planted a lot of beliefs themselves.

[The Spac]

The Reverend Mothers took overdoses of spice essence, and still do from Dune, onwards and before. It's their reason why their so interested in making sure the spice still flows because their now addicted to it.

The Water of Life is used by the wild Reverend Mothers of Dune. (Which once transmuted has the double effect of allowing spice orgies)

As for Jessica not knowing that Abomination would happen, all I can guess it that, she is still an Acolyte during the time of Dune, and that fellow RM's in the BG would of taken the right precautions when it would of been her time to go through the agony.

Also being preborn doesn't automatically make you an Abomination. :)

As for eyes not being blue, I would have to say it's contact lenses, alot of factions used them in Dune because they did not wish the others to know they had such a reliance on Spice, which could then be used against them. When Muad'Dib takes power it ends up being kind of pointless to hide these things.

My 2 solaris. :)

[3ngel]

Also being preborn doesn't automatically make you an Abomination

If you're born from a Reverend Mother, yes you're an abomination.

As for Jessica, she simply was a rebellious for love, she chose to follow the heart rather than the BG teachings and she conceived Paul (a male against the BG prohibition).

She sacrified for love (of Paul) even her daughter (she obviously knew she was born as an abomination).

[driftingcloud]

If you're born from a Reverend Mother, yes you're an abomination.

I think the Spac is right, pre-born does not equal abomination. The BG have strict rules against the possibility of abomination, so that is why no one undergoes the agony while pregnant. Jessica and Alia both thought they could handle the issue, and it seems until Alia matures that this is the case, that Alia is not an abomination. She succumbs to the memories later, and so is not necessarily an abomination when born.

Ghanima and Leto II were pre-born, but they were not abominations. Chani wasn't a reverend mother, but with the spice she was ingesting, she might as well have been.

[3ngel]

and it seems until Alia matures that this is the case, that Alia is not an abomination. She succumbs to the memories later, and so is not necessarily an abomination when born

Oh, you're right. Moreover i forgot the dialogue between Ghanima and Leto

[nessus87]

Up untill the discovery by Jessica on Arrakis that they use the Water of Life the Bene GEsserit were not using it. Reverend MOthers became Reverend Mothers by using other awareness drugs.

[gowachin]

after thinking about it... I answered my own question. I'll have to agree with the other posters that the BG used spice for the Agony at the time of the first book. Paul was told that many men had tried the Water of Life ceremony to see if they were a KH. A KH is a male Reverend Mother... if he was to use spice essence for the Agony... why not the BG?

Concerning RM Mohaim's eyes... sure, she could have used contacts. But I think Frank had just not figured everything out about his universe. For example: after the first book, we never hear anything again about the use of Sapho and the red lips of Mentats. He just threw the whole concept away.

Thanks for the help, guys.

[gowachin]

As for Jessica, she simply was a rebellious for love, she chose to follow the heart rather than the BG teachings and she conceived Paul (a male against the BG prohibition).

She sacrified for love (of Paul) even her daughter (she obviously knew she was born as an abomination).

And her decision caused the Bene Gesserit thousands of years of suffering. First under Maud'Dib, then the Tyrant.

She became the "Heretic" and started the long lesson that the Atreides would teach the Bene Gesserit. It was a hard lesson, but one that the BG needed to learn... and I believe that Taraza and, especially, Odrade did learn that lesson... at least a little.

[nessus87]

It never said they tried the Water of Life ceremony, but it only said that they tried to take the Truthsayer Drug.

[gowachin]

It never said they tried the Water of Life ceremony, but it only said that they tried to take the Truthsayer Drug.

Really? I thought it did. And I don't remember it specifically saying that it was the truthsayer drug that killed all those who died trying. It's been a while since I've read Dune, I could totally be mistaken.

I'll have dig out my Dune and check it out. It's packed away!

[3ngel]

She became the "Heretic" and started the long lesson that the Atreides would teach the Bene Gesserit. It was a hard lesson, but one that the BG needed to learn... and I believe that Taraza and, especially, Odrade did learn that lesson... at least a little.

You can say that. In the end Odrade understood that emotions can't be simply put away or ignored, because they are a reality.

They must not be avoided and suppressed 'cause in the end they'll go out with even more force and risks (see exactly Jessica). Instead they have to be used and controlled.

[gowachin]

It never said they tried the Water of Life ceremony, but it only said that they tried to take the Truthsayer Drug.

Yep... there it is on page 13. Truthsayer drug.

Kull Wahad! Now, I'm confused!

[nessus87]

The Fremen knew of the effects of the Water of Life and used it to make their Reverend MOthers. They were taught this by a Reverend MOther in extremis following the Missionaria scheme (JEssica guesses). BEfore that other drugs were always used. However once they discovered how effective the Water of Life was no other drugs could match. Also, if a Reverend MOther was made one via Water of Life she couldn't be influenced by the other drugs.

During Leto's reign the Reverend MOthers sometimes used the other drugs because they had a short supply of melange but it was comparatively ineffective. BAsicly the spice doesn't make a Reverend MOther but changing poison does. It has to be a special poison that taxes the Reverend MOther. While she is focused inward on changing the poison her other abilities are made available.

Jessica does comment on the Water of Life saying something to the effct of: They have discovered how to use pure melange to make Reverend MOthers.

I like everyone else assumed that they had always used Melange but upon further investigation I realized the truth.

Even Brian HErbert managed not to screw up there and in his books Melange is not used to make Reverend MOthers among the BEne GEsserit. The first illuminating poison was found in the Battle of Corrin on Rossack by Anirul (or whatever her name was). Leto II in GEoD mentions that discovery on Rossack.

[NHJ BV]

You can say that. In the end Odrade understood that emotions can't be simply put away or ignored, because they are a reality.

They must not be avoided and suppressed 'cause in the end they'll go out with even more force and risks (see exactly Jessica).

And the Honored Matres, I suppose.

[3ngel]

Exactly.