What is GOD?

[The Spac]

"We dont belong to ourselves... we are just some atoms slung together by a higher force.... who are we to tell him what he can and cant do when your existence depends on him?  If anybody deserved submission, loyalty, obedience,.... its him."

I don't believe that, I believe we should test our will against GODs on a daily basis. If he tells me to sit down then I stand up, and if he smashes me into dust for disobedience then I will sure will make it hard for him.

I would rather have done the action, and paid for the consequences then stand there following gods orders because I believe we were meant (humans) for greater things then an eternity of worshipping. And we do have the potential to be great you just have to realise it.

We only don't belong to ourselves once we've given ourselves over to GOD, and then you loose what I like to describe as the human spirit. The human spirit wants to seek to quest and to grow, and if we turn ourselves over to god then we accept his vision of us. I believe we can be greater.

Alright shoot down what I've said ;)

[nampigai]

wow lots of anger and resentment here.

i am sorry your dad abused you nampigai...i am sorry he wasnt an intelligent enough man to understand the religion's theology... i am sorry he made you do rituals that made you feel uncomfortable as you got older.... i am glad you wont do that to your child.

[gunner154]

"We dont belong to ourselves... we are just some atoms slung together by a higher force.... who are we to tell him what he can and cant do when your existence depends on him?

[Acriku]

Actually all the "innocents" got a warning from Noah.  So theoretically if they had "listened" then they would have lived.

Who in their right mind would believe a simple man telling them that God is going to flood the world and his boat can save them? Please... That's not a warning. Even if it was, that is no excuse for murdering everyone. If God is morally absolute, then God is neither good nor evil. He can neither be praised nor shunned. But, as long as people praise God for his glory and such, I will continue to shun him for his actions.

As far as calling him a naked drunk.... have you never slept naked? It might have been a hot sweaty night.  AS far as being drunk.... the people back then had to drink wine as it was the only way to preserve grape juice.  A grape harvest would spoil after days... turining it into wine would let it last for months...years.  Medieval children drank what was called a "children's beer" which is stronger than what we drink today.  So the guy drank a little too much and slept in the nude.... who are you to judge him?  Perhaps he was really stressed out about having the knowledge that God was gonna wipe out the world.... thats a pretty big burden.  You are such a child to toss around insults like that.  If drinking a bit too much that night was his only sin then he certainly can claim title of top 10 righteous men in my book.

That wasn't an insult, that was a fact (as far as it is said in the Bible). Don't get defensive on me, gunwounds. He danced around naked. He drank until he was drunk. A naked drunk. And from what I've been taught, according to God, a sin is a sin. There is no heirarchy of which is more favorable. If you killed a person, you sinned. If you lied, you sinned. God doesn't pick and choose.

I thought you went to Hebrew school Acriku.... how can you be so ignorant of the material especially since your parents are jewish/christian?  This is like first grade bible study material i am having to explain to you.

I didn't ask for it to be explained, so don't jump to conclusions on what I've learned from Hebrew School.

[Acriku]

    God according to the bible is made up of 3 parts.  Father (impersonal, morally absolute, judge, jury, exceutioner, rewarder), Word(jesus, personal side), Holy Spirit (the power, the force).  Think of it like this... God the Father says "let  X be created" ... the will or the words is the Word(jesus) and the holy spirit is his power that actually makes it come true.  Father makes the decisions, the Word expresses it.... the Holy Spirit does the job.  Different entities in the Trinity Godhead but still one entity.

Interesting... I'd like to start another thread based on this trinity idea. I don't think it's as "according to the bible" as mentioned.

    Same works for you....  Your brain (Father) makes a decision to pick up a rock, you say you are doing so and you reach over to grab it Manifestation of will (Word, Jesus) , the actual kinetic force of your muscles contracting and your energy allowing you to pick up the rock is the "act" being done (Holy Spirit, Power)  All require each other...all have diff jobs... but all are one entity.

My muscles are not part of my "entity". I can lose them, or gain them. Or keep what I have. Same goes for manifestation of will, I can lose my ability to manifest or gain more. This analogy isn't very good. And I don't think you can find a proper analogy because the whole concept takes a lot of mental jumping-through-hoops to get a grasp of.

    Since this is a deity the different "parts" have some sort of independant movement while still staying within its principled being.  Mercy and Grace are not sinful things... they are undeserved things so it was not sinful for jesus to want to save us... but the grace and mercy would have to be actively accepted as to show that the person accepting the grace and mercy were actually attempting to be redeemed.  If it did not work this way..if everyone got mercy and grace  regardless of whether they wanted to be redeemed or not then it would be no different from God simply allowing evil to go around unbridled.  By making salvation something you must actively submit to and even change your life for.... it makes it true mercy and grace instead of "apathetic condonement of evil".  God the father is absolute in that he generates X amount of wrath for X amount of sin.  I believe he has the perrogative however to manifest that wrath (thru the holy spirit) by however he sees fit.  By direct punishment or acceptable sacrifice.  Now if the Word (jesus) decided to volunteer to be the sacrifice for us... and God the Father allowed it then i see that as "saving us by himself" which is what you asked for.

But there requires something other than "moral absolution" to allow the sacrifice, and forgive. There requires a bridge between God and Jesus, and the existence of that bridge means that God is not as absolute as you say. That's the problem with extremes (moral absoluteness), they are hard to defend.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Interesting... I'd like to start another thread based on this trinity idea. I don't think it's as "according to the bible" as mentioned.

My muscles are not part of my "entity". I can lose them, or gain them. Or keep what I have. Same goes for manifestation of will, I can lose my ability to manifest or gain more. This analogy isn't very good. And I don't think you can find a proper analogy because the whole concept takes a lot of mental jumping-through-hoops to get a grasp of.

But there requires something other than "moral absolution" to allow the sacrifice, and forgive. There requires a bridge between God and Jesus, and the existence of that bridge means that God is not as absolute as you say. That's the problem with extremes (moral absoluteness), they are hard to defend.

Actually muscles are part of your entity.... you cannot pick up the rock without the muscles... if you lost all your muscles you would die. It was just an analogy to express how to visualize your "power".

[Acriku]

Does that describe to you a morally absolute God, or an egotistical god who is dependent on others worshipping him? And you say we are making him too human... hmm...

[GUNWOUNDS]

Where does egotistical come into it?.. and how does he become dependant upon us?... you have said this a million times but it doesnt make sense.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Egotistical means you are being prideful and do not deserve praise.

[Acriku]

Oh, I'm sure the Bible does nothing of attributing God with the likes of a human. A god being jealous. A god being angry. A god walking through the garden of Eden. A god talking to people. A god adopting a father status. A god impregnating a woman. A god becoming disappointed. No, no. The bible doesn't make God out to be human-like at all.

...

How is it that a god deserves worship or praise? Is a deist god nonsensical to you, since it doesn't require the single and constant worship and praise that Jehovah does? You're adding on inherencies of being a god that do not exist...

What do I expect god to do if I decide (out of my free will that he so graciously gave me) to hate him and what he stands for? Absolutely nothing. THAT is free will. Sending people to hell for eternity if they do not follow his word, and telling them of this punishment, is NOT giving us the free will that you make him out to cherish so much.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Oh, I'm sure the Bible does nothing of attributing God with the likes of a human. A god being jealous. A god being angry. A god walking through the garden of Eden. A god talking to people. A god adopting a father status. A god impregnating a woman. A god becoming disappointed. No, no. The bible doesn't make God out to be human-like at all.

I guess you arent of intellectual capacity to understand the word Anthropomorphism.

[GUNWOUNDS]

How is it that a god deserves worship or praise? Is a deist god nonsensical to you, since it doesn't require the single and constant worship and praise that Jehovah does? You're adding on inherencies of being a god that do not exist...

What do I expect god to do if I decide (out of my free will that he so graciously gave me) to hate him and what he stands for? Absolutely nothing. THAT is free will. Sending people to hell for eternity if they do not follow his word, and telling them of this punishment, is NOT giving us the free will that you make him out to cherish so much.

Why doesnt a God deserve worship or praise?

[Acriku]

Now we're getting somewhere. Anthropomorphism, the doing of the man or of the god? When the bible talks of God walking through the garden of Eden and calling out for Adam, did this really happen or was it the intrepretation of the man? If the latter, then what else is the interpretation of man and not what actually happened? Can you trust such a man who morphs what really happened into what is described as anthropomorphism? Can you trust what he writes?

If the former, then it ceases to be anthropomorphism.

Why doesnt a God deserve worship or praise?  He doesnt NEED it... he just deserves it.  My earthly father doesnt need my respect.. but i do respect him because he is worthy of my respect.  To not respect him would be an offense to him.  You can be offended by things you dont need.  You dont need a hole in your head but you would be offended if i gave you one.

Why does he deserve praise or worship? We typically praise people for their efforts, and how much they put into their efforts. God is omnipotent, and therefore required zero effort and zero difficulty. Where is the need for praise if everything is infinitely easy for God?

Why does he deserve worship? Well there is only one reason: you go to hell otherwise.

On the topic of needing either praise or worship, why does God make us worship him and only him if he does not need it? Why does he tell us to worship him at all?

And by God separating you form Him... he is doing exactly what you want... he is doing NOTHING.... he is giving you exactly what you want... a place where there is no God.... except you didnt expect that it was gonna be so bad without him.  Its like telling your wife that you are mad at her and that you want nothing to do with her.  So she does what you want and she drops you off at some deserted island..... except that after she leves you realize you arent getting anymore sex for the rest of your life and you slowly go insane.  You were too stupid to stop and realize what abusing your free will would reap.  Whats that saying?  "Be careful what you wish for?"

Well, that depends on the reality of hell. Is it just being without him, or is it the firey torture and whipping and gnashing of teeth that is so commonly believed? There's merit to either definition.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Now we're getting somewhere. Anthropomorphism, the doing of the man or of the god? When the bible talks of God walking through the garden of Eden and calling out for Adam, did this really happen or was it the intrepretation of the man? If the latter, then what else is the interpretation of man and not what actually happened? Can you trust such a man who morphs what really happened into what is described as anthropomorphism? Can you trust what he writes?

If the former, then it ceases to be anthropomorphism.

Why does he deserve praise or worship? We typically praise people for their efforts, and how much they put into their efforts. God is omnipotent, and therefore required zero effort and zero difficulty. Where is the need for praise if everything is infinitely easy for God?

Why does he deserve worship? Well there is only one reason: you go to hell otherwise.

On the topic of needing either praise or worship, why does God make us worship him and only him if he does not need it? Why does he tell us to worship him at all?

Well, that depends on the reality of hell. Is it just being without him, or is it the firey torture and whipping and gnashing of teeth that is so commonly believed? There's merit to either definition.

1.) Obviously a man has to describe an infinite god the best way he can... since he has a finite mind and is describing an infinite god... of course he will ahve to use anthropomorphisms to get the point across.  Saying that "God used his quantum singularity to leviate across the garden's magnetic field whilst bending light at a freqnecy modulation of 560 nanometers as to not spook the beasts in the garden" was obviously not an option for Moses.  Obviously as God spoke to MOses he would explain it to him such that an ancient jew with limited physcis knowledge would being to comprehend the material enough to express it to others.

2.) Why does god deserve worship?  Because he is infinitely glorious?  Because he created your existence?  Is that not a reason to celebrate his wonder?  Also why do you envision worship as mindless bowing up and odwn of the human body?.  Why cannot it be an attempt to claim your redemption, to gain a relationship with God and to stand by him all of eternity to witness future creations.  Why worship God?  To be able to experience his love and glory.  If you decide to reject this... then i believe he simply (but sadly) puts you on your deserted island that i mentioned above and you slowly go insane from the torment of the stupid decision you made.

[gunner154]

Why does he deserve worship? Well there is only one reason: you go to hell otherwise.

You do not go to hell for not believing in him. You go to hell if you commit sin and you refuse to reflect on it, or you are still unrepentent for doing something that is obviously wrong. Acriku-, nobody is going to send you to hell for not believing in God.

[Acriku]

1.) Obviously a man has to describe an infinite god the best way he can... since he has a finite mind and is describing an infinite god... of course he will ahve to use anthropomorphisms to get the point across.  Saying that "God used his quantum singularity to leviate across the garden's magnetic field whilst bending light at a freqnecy modulation of 560 nanometers as to not spook the beasts in the garden" was obviously not an option for Moses.  Obviously as God spoke to MOses he would explain it to him such that an ancient jew with limited physcis knowledge would being to comprehend the material enough to express it to others.

Again, can we trust the material if it is not to be taken literally? What else is wrong in the bible, caused by the limits of the men who wrote it?

2.) Why does god deserve worship?  Because he is infinitely glorious?  Because he created your existence?  Is that not a reason to celebrate his wonder?  Also why do you envision worship as mindless bowing up and odwn of the human body?.

And where did I mention anything of midnless bowing up and down of the human body? Are you making things up to throw me off?

Why cannot it be an attempt to claim your redemption, to gain a relationship with God and to stand by him all of eternity to witness future creations.  Why worship God?  To be able to experience his love and glory.  If you decide to reject this... then i believe he simply (but sadly) puts you on your deserted island that i mentioned above and you slowly go insane from the torment of the stupid decision you made.

"to gain a relationship with God and to stand by him all eternity" you, yourself, seem to imagine him anthropomorphically. By simply referring to the god as "him" reveals some. Why not call the god, it? Anyway, so your reason to worship God is to avoid "the island"? Sure you can try to gain a relationship with him, but that doesn't mean he deserves it. What is infinitely glorious about God? Again, there is no glory in something a god can do with infinite ease. He did nothing to gain his omnipotence, he does nothing to keep it, he did nothing. He's always had it. Where is the glory?

You do not go to hell for not believing in him. You go to hell if you commit sin and you refuse to reflect on it, or you are still unrepentent for doing something that is obviously wrong. Acriku-, nobody is going to send you to hell for not believing in God.

But if I don't believe in God, then I wouldn't naturally repent to him for what I've sinned. So, yes I would be sent to hell for not believing. Many of the commandments that upon broken result in hell highly involve worship and believing in God (or acts that require a belief in him). Believing in God is required to avoid hell.

I actually lead a morally good life. I don't break any laws that harm anybody, I strive to do what's right, and if I do make a mistake of doing something bad then I feel bad and eventually either undo it or make up for it. I donate 5 dollars out of my paycheck every week to United Way, I am neither prideful (I'm a pretty damn modest person when you get to know me) nor hateful. Or, I try not to be. Now, do I deserve to go to hell?

[GUNWOUNDS]

Again, can we trust the material if it is not to be taken literally? What else is wrong in the bible, caused by the limits of the men who wrote it?

And where did I mention anything of midnless bowing up and down of the human body? Are you making things up to throw me off?

"to gain a relationship with God and to stand by him all eternity" you, yourself, seem to imagine him anthropomorphically. By simply referring to the god as "him" reveals some. Why not call the god, it? Anyway, so your reason to worship God is to avoid "the island"? Sure you can try to gain a relationship with him, but that doesn't mean he deserves it. What is infinitely glorious about God? Again, there is no glory in something a god can do with infinite ease. He did nothing to gain his omnipotence, he does nothing to keep it, he did nothing. He's always had it. Where is the glory?

But if I don't believe in God, then I wouldn't naturally repent to him for what I've sinned. So, yes I would be sent to hell for not believing. Many of the commandments that upon broken result in hell highly involve worship and believing in God (or acts that require a belief in him). Believing in God is required to avoid hell.

I actually lead a morally good life. I don't break any laws that harm anybody, I strive to do what's right, and if I do make a mistake of doing something bad then I feel bad and eventually either undo it or make up for it. I donate 5 dollars out of my paycheck every week to United Way, I am neither prideful (I'm a pretty damn modest person when you get to know me) nor hateful. Or, I try not to be. Now, do I deserve to go to hell?

things dont have to be literal to be taken seriously.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I actually lead a morally good life. I don't break any laws that harm anybody, I strive to do what's right, and if I do make a mistake of doing something bad then I feel bad and eventually either undo it or make up for it. I donate 5 dollars out of my paycheck every week to United Way, I am neither prideful (I'm a pretty damn modest person when you get to know me) nor hateful. Or, I try not to be. Now, do I deserve to go to hell?

You only deserve to be seperated from God if that is what you really want.

[gunner154]

Fact is, he is omnipotent. You reward a man not solely for the effort he put in to do something, but how exactly is his effort a service, be it to himself or to others. Judging on a single criterion is myopic - look at the bigger picture. Christians believe that it was God who created them - for giving them life, they are eternally grateful. That alone is sufficient justification for being grateful to him. Take the great Exodus for example: The people were thankful for God saved them from the Egyptians, but later on they lost faith, and they blamed God for all the bad things that happened without counting their blessings. For this God punished them, but later on God forgave them, eg. the snake idol. What angers God is that you lose faith and turn AWAY from him. If you don't care about him right from the start, he doesn't care about you either, and heck if any shit happens to your life you don't need to turn to him. Whether you go to hell or not is, in this scenario, independent of whether you believe in him or not. But if you were a freakin' cold-blooded rapist/murderer and you still believed what you did was right all the way, best of luck to you in hell.

[Acriku]

You only deserve to be seperated from God if that is what you really want.  It seems you dont really want a relationship with God in this life ...you simply have no interest.. heck you said you even hold contempt for him.  If god just gives you want you desire (life without him) then what are you complaining about?

Now if you said you do all of this while simultaneously trying to search for God and wanting to have a life with him... then i would agree you dont deserve to be seperated from God as it is not what you want.

I wouldn't complain if it is just separation from him. But, like I said before, there are other definitions of hell. Which is the true reality? I would hope it is not the firey torture place. I'm going to bed, but I'll be back tomorrow. G'night.

[stefanhendriks]

I still find God a nice excuse for things that go wrong or things that go as you want it.

War is not made by God, its by men.

Deaths occur due men, not due God.

Births, love, etc, are due men, not due God.

Its not God who make women pregnant, its humans/men. So do women give birth to children.

God is that thing you can't describe, and you want to reason with. To fill in gaps , and that makes you satisfied. To me, God, is a phenomenom yet to be seen, but some people 'feel' it. To me, there is no God. There is just my life, which i am living on a planet with 6 billion other humans. And, despite all 'lessons from God', we still wage war, kill each other, and all ask for forgiveness from Him. Hence, if i was God, i would just scrap humans at once and restart the project...

[SpiceGuid]

God is the infinite power which pushes possibility into existence. All other is just derived from it.

I second that, and i also feel it's Matrix-like. There is some emptiness that contradictorily makes everything solid and that could be God or "be the Force with u" that makes no difference to me.

[Caid Ivik]

I second that, and i also feel it's Matrix-like. There is some emptiness that contradictorily makes everything solid and that could be God or "be the Force with u" that makes no difference to me.

We can say that God is in its essence a singularity, while emptiness, as well as matter (not the Force in its primordial essence; even about emptiness you can say that it 'exists', to return to older thoughts) as its contradictorium, as well as whole concept of duality/quantity, is a secondary creation. Hm, so this is the ontological God. Why does everybody speak here about morals?

[Harkdawg]

there are soo many variations, theories and stories about this so called "god". Some have come "bigger", in terms of people beliveing in that more than other "definitions" of the so called "god".

In life, one can only learn about them and make up hes own mind in what seems most logical to him.

And naturally,through my experiences i have come to a view, what i belive about the current topic.

Although i thought id write some big insight story about it :) lol, ill put it quite simply

"God" (if you want to call it that)  is All There Is , literally ... :) , We are all One ( Yes i am "god" and you are "god" aswell)

[The Spac]

We can say that God is in its essence a singularity, while emptiness, as well as matter (not the Force in its primordial essence; even about emptiness you can say that it 'exists', to return to older thoughts) as its contradictorium, as well as whole concept of duality/quantity, is a secondary creation. Hm, so this is the ontological God. Why does everybody speak here about morals?

They speak of morals because of things like the 10 commandmants and the bible go hand in hand with god.:)