Bastardization of Faith

[TMA_1]

Hey guys

I just want to put some ideas out there, and see what you guys think. I am up for full debate, and I promise to keep my well known temper tantrums down.lol

I have noticed that many faith systems in the west have become currupted, on all sides of the board. People like Pat Robertson and Rabbi Lapin (who I used to respect highly) have all but tarnished the name of God by their teachings. Their teachings stress health and wellbeing, and if you happen to listen to the shows that these kinds of people are on, you will see that it is all they talk about. Inspirational stories and miracles, as well as tips to stay healthy and keep the finances up. This isnt preaching! This is coping with problems in life, coping with religion! damn, it just sucks that there is no teaching of doctrine anymore. I have not seen one good christian television show other than Jack Van Impe, simply because he actually talks about the scriptures, but even his show has turned into a doomsday countdown. I remember how it crushed me when I heard Rabbi Lapin, who I mentioned before, said in one of his little leaflets "Does God want people to be rich?" ..."Yes!"  ... This kind of blind opinionated crap just creates problems for people of faith. Those that honestly believe that they can attain wealth by God are fooled because many get nothing in return for their folly, and those that believe that God gives to those according to their mission in life, they are stuck seeing the church as a whole suck off the teat of this world. Where is the hard knowledge? When did the church forget that it is a pure focus on the scriptures and prayer? It seems that for almost 2000 years the church has had collective amnesia about it's mission on earth.

Not only are the more conservative christians failing in their mission, but also those christians that are bent to the more liberal fashion. Many homogenize their faith, taking away the idea that the bible is inspired by God. They seem to turn away from the scriptures of the bible that say the bible is completely accurate. Whether or not you believe this to be true, the idea of compromising scripture just opens up too many questions that end up homogenizing the faith. There are differences in beliefs obviously, about the details of creation and of core issues involving the trinity and the hypostatic union, but these are based on interpritations of what the scripture says, not(or not usually)about adding or taking away from the scriptures. 

It just seems that christianity is slowly disintegrating, on all sides. I just dont think that western society has been good for christianity, or any cultural intrusion for that matter. Of course it is bound to happen, human manipulation of dogma is going to happen over time, but honestly many who call themselves christian, and usually those who are in power, have done a lot of bad in the name of christ. It always involves politics and a set powerstructure of christianity that souldnt even exist in the first place.

On top of this, many are growing tired of what they see in the past as christianity doing great evil. Many dont look at what christianity should be, but look at it for what it has become.

Yesterday on Cspan I saw this debate about how the war in iraq is doing with both the american people and those who live abroad. Late in the debate though the person who was attacking the american government, specifically the presidency, said that it is all because of the ignorant and Fundimentalist right wingers who have screwed things up horribly in iraq.

I wont argue about the war, personally it was a bad idea to begin with, created by the fear that the conseratives, the media, and corperations spewed out. The people are really to blame, but again as I said not dealing with this issue, only to say that to some extent it is true about what he said.

What scares me though is that when comparing against islamic fundimentalists, many fundimentalist christians are put in the same boat with those terrorists who have attacked specific areas in europe and america. First of all fundimentalism has nothing really to do with the war in Iraq. The evil neo conservatives have USED many who are very old fashioned and have christian sentiments. It freakes me out that there is a more hostile attitude against christianity, and this continuing attack against fundimentalist christianity scares me because to many who read the scriptures and try to follow the words of the bible, we did not support the  irrational ideas that are put on us. It seems like a blind sterotype, and as we know, humans have a tendancy to feed off of stereotypes until hatred crops its head up.

Much of the church seems currupt, and many now are angry about the past of christianity, even if it isnt an example of what christianity really preaches.

I hear a lot about trying to better understand islam, and oher religions, but why dont I hear that same empathetic sentiment towards christianity?

Want to hear ya guys out, by all means lets debate even if therea re disagreements, I am totally ready. :)

[Edric O]

I can't really debate, because I pretty much agree with everything you said. We are stuck between corrupted fundamentalists who claim to be holier than thou but don't pay much attention to any of the actual teachings of Christ, and atheists who point at the fundamentalists and say "See? This is Christianity! Twisted, hypocritical and evil."

The problem is clear. The question, then, is what to do about it. The burden falls upon us Christians to clean up our own yard. We have to deal with McReligion before it is too late. The main difficulty lies in the fact that, within Christianity, there seem to be two dominant currents that are equally bad and dangerous. I call them (in rather inflammatory language, I know) the Taliban and the Hippies.

The Taliban insist on a literal interpretation of the Bible, but only those parts they like. They care about homosexuality - which Jesus didn't consider important enough to mention even once - but not about helping the poor. They care about Creationism, but drive gas-guzzling SUVs and have no respect for God's creation. They defend the rights of unborn children, but couldn't care less about born children who live in single-parent families or in bad neighborhoods or have no shot at a decent education. They hate sinners and do not realize that they are sinners themselves. They are Christians in name only.

The Hippies, on the other hand, have the opposite problem. They are open and loving, they embrace sinners as Jesus taught us - but they do not fight against sin. They are tolerant of people, as they should be, but they are also tolerant of sin. They compromise and water down their Christianity. They look at the Taliban and think "This is what happens when you take Christianity too far; I'd better compromise", instead of realizing that the Taliban are perverting Christianity, not taking it too far.

I sympathize more with the Hippies than the Taliban, because the Hippies at least have their heart in the right place. And I think our first priority must be to fight the public perception that the Taliban represent "consistent" or "principled" Christianity. It is time to say "No, you do not speak for God, and we will no longer allow you to spread your hypocrisy in His name".

[GUNWOUNDS]

There is no debate.. you are absolutely correct in your analysis TMA.

I loved your hippie/taliban analogy  Edrico.

[nemafakei]

Without a doubt, the moral message of christianity is too often obscured by issues like abortion, and politics. When I see prominent religious voices using their influence to attack the teaching of evolution, or details of faith, or homosexuality, or other religions, well, it's disappointing and frustration to say the least. The 'hippies', meanwhile, may care about poverty, oppression, crime, and so forth, but tend to be too apathetic, unassuming and timid to actually speak out on issues that matter.

[Davidu]

Religion, in my opinio, should be all about spirit and comforting people...

To kill in the name of religion is blasphemy. And I say that, who I am almost an atheist.

[The Spac]

I have to say I have barely met anyone lately who has been totally hippie like, it's like religion in western countries is dying off, and is only used when it's convenient for the person to use it.

[Acriku]

The moral core of Christianity, I hope, is to help everyone around them whether they be enemy or friend. That might range from giving a couple bucks to a homeless guy all the way to giving the message of Christ to a lost soul so that he may be accepted into Heaven. Aside from the eternal salvation part, Christianity's moral goal coincides with humanism, does it not?

[Dude_Doc]

I fully agree with Edric O and TMA. We should start a new world union called "True Christianity Organization".

:D

But I am more irritated on how these "Talibans" of the "Christian right" who blames every problem on some kind of "communist conspiracy that are destroying America". Firstly, American corporations are the so called leading force in the world today. Hell, an American corporation bought all water in Bolivia! Sure, these "communists" (Russia, China) were not that nice themselves, but to sit and point everything towards other people and countries is so unconstitutional and stupid, one shouldn't even be called a "Christian" because of that.

[Davidu]

It doesen't matter what relifion we're talking about!

I mean... if you use religion, any religion, to grow ritch... It's pure evil. I don't know how to say it... but playing with other people's dreams, wishes, faith... is atrocious.

[The Spac]

It doesen't matter what relifion we're talking about!

I mean... if you use religion, any religion, to grow ritch... It's pure evil. I don't know how to say it... but playing with other people's dreams, wishes, faith... is atrocious.

I agree it's one of the worst things you can do use good to do evil.

[TMA_1]

you pinned it. Humans seem to have a weird tendancy to use (or abuse) faith instead of letting that faith use them. That is why the holy spirit is so important in christian beliefs, because if you stay in fellowship with God the holy spirit will always help guide you in what you do. The point is to be a conduit of God.

[Davidu]

I don't like to be controlled. Even by God. I like to make my own mistakes er... decisions.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I don't like to be controlled. Even by God. I like to make my own mistakes er... decisions.

thats a poor attitude to have.  Its a fatherly love and fatherly guidance that he will give not some mind control.  Perhaps you are jaded by your parents... thats unfortunate... however i have always had a good relationship with my father so i can clearly understand the concept whereas some jaded people might not understand and take a hostile view at having a relationship with God.  I have no problems being a conduit for God.  He created me... the least i can do is thank him for bringing me into existance by letting him show me how to understand the universe.... just like my earthly father taught me how to walk and speak.... God is wanting to show you the same just on a higher level.

[Acriku]

thats a poor attitude to have.  Its a fatherly love and fatherly guidance that he will give not some mind control.  Perhaps you are jaded by your parents... thats unfortunate... however i have always had a good relationship with my father so i can clearly understand the concept whereas some jaded people might not understand and take a hostile view at having a relationship with God.  I have no problems being a conduit for God.  He created me... the least i can do is thank him for bringing me into existance by letting him show me how to understand the universe.... just like my earthly father taught me how to walk and speak.... God is wanting to show you the same just on a higher level.

Actually, that's a valid analogy. When we are born, our parents take care of us until it is no longer needed, and we grow up. Well, this is analogous to our species. We've gone through these 5 or 6 thousand years, and now we're almost grown up and do not need our Father's guidance.

[nemafakei]

You think humanity has already grown up? I would contest that strongly. Look at what we're going to our world and each other.

[Egeides]

Humans themselves didn't grow up or otherwise, but what they do or what supports them (society and so on) seems to be "bastardized". But even in a place where there would be total decadence, human feelings and ways would still be present. But I guess that a "good guy" wont be nor act the same if he is a nietzschean zealot or an hedonist zealot (for example). Of course children "grow up", but it doesn't mean that adults are better or worst I think, but rather that they were given better tools to do good (...or bad).

Often like the stock market, societies see growth and then it goes back down. The only trouble is when the bubble was kept too high and then it will go back lower, where you have less to actually rebuild with. This is why modesty is preferrable to excentric self-confidence, even if confidence is legitimate in positive environment and excentricity brings specialization.

As for now, I think that not only religion is watered down in favor of form (which shows off to compensate the lack of content), and secundary products (like books sold by sellmen claiming their faith and promoting like PR executives in suit). This same phenomenon exists with art, or with economy. Or of course politics, and some would add a moral which has no all-comprehensive inner coherence and thus easily gives way to slippery slopes.

It's simple: in society, there exists interconnections and thus it is pretty hard to see a field untouched if an adjacent one is being leeched.

An example for art, the science of beauty [/irony mode], for whoever would be interested:

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050912&s=perl091205

[Acriku]

You think humanity has already grown up? I would contest that strongly. Look at what we're going to our world and each other.

To the degree that we are not largely dependent on the crutches of religion, yes. Even if we're not completely grown up, to further the analogy some parents let their somewhat unprepared children on their own so that they can adapt on their own and grow up themselves.

[GUNWOUNDS]

we will never be grown up and independent of god until we have his power and knowledge... which will be never.

[Sneakgab]

Much of the present world is led by those who seek little else than wealth as well as corporations, bull$h!t religions/schemes,e.t.c. Of course, it would not be profitable for these men in power to allow true morals and religions to exist in proper sensible forms, because if they did, then we would not drive their ''gas guzzling'' SUV's for example.

In a world of supposedly ''free enterprise'', money obviously provides great power in many areas. For example, the state is influenced by organizations that ''donate'' to their election campaighns and also simply have a firm grasp on the balls of that state's economy. Obviously, these people would rather teach their own doctrine at schools so as to have additional drones for their bidding, and would rather not have the religious respecting Gods creation and therefore purchasing less oil, pollutants, e.t.c.

In a world where it is difficult for a free mind to resist being rendered a drone even before leaving school and in a world driven by profit seekers, is it any wonder that moral values become corrupt. It is truer to say that all values and ideas are corrupted: Art and culture is corrupted to mindless ''fashion'' buzz, and anything that is inconvenient is removed easily. We see this throughout history; when the monarchists seeked to maintain power, they used their power to prevent the spread of ideas that would take their power away through arresting philosophers and the like.

Now we see a different kind of imprisonment, that does not require the philosopher to be behind bars. Instead, the spread of new ideas is contained by making them unpopular/''nerdy''/whatever. Just look at the BS communist stigma and anti-communist dogma in schools.

And observing this one, should take note that we hardly seem to be on the verge of communist revolution, and yet even most history syllabus seems to refuse to admit the difference between stalinism and communism. If this kind of stifling control is place over so minor a threat, then what is done to more threatening and damaging ideas? Well, environmentalists who would rather we don't kill off the human race and the rest of the world by destroying the ozone layer,forests,e.t.c are all placed under the stereotype of sheep shagging tree huggers. I can't remember the last time I saw a reasonable environmentalist on tv, instead, they only ever make appearances as rabid street protesters. And now, we see christians being viewed as mentioned in this play, because christian values are inconvenient to profit seekers due to their humanism.

Unfortunately, the systems in control seem very hard to overcome, and so we will probably see the prevalance of perverted ideas as well as the complete destruction of completely incompatible ideas for quite some time.

[Davidu]

Well Gunwounds... my parents taought me how to learn and encouradged me to discover things. So from one point I took my own... let's say education in my own hands and I started creating my own values that evolved from theirs. I tried to take their values to a new level.

That is how I see a parent-child relationship: teach him how to learn. Advise him and try to keep him out of trouble. Pass knowledge and take pride and be content if your child takes what you have entrusted him to a new level.

For me I think it'll be a great intellectual challenge when I'll have my own child(ren) and to educate them in such a way to give them free space to evolve independantly.

The relationship with a diety is... hmm... different. I mean the christians created a fatherly figure that watches over us, because at a certain point in life the parents die and the individual needs some sense of stability: the god. God. I doubt that our image of God now is the same of the image of God for the early christians who worshipped him in a ... pagan way, as they knew no other way to express their belief.

New, Gunwounds, each of us has a relationship with his own God ( I'm talking here for the guys over here that have other religions too). I mean you see him as an universal father figure. Myself... I'm not much of a believer, but if God existed, I wouldn't dare to ask anything as I never gave anything in place.

I respect the people who believe in a diety or other, because they have the courage to no ask questions and to be happy without wondering too much WHY. I cannot do that. I'm one of those idiots that run after a ghost all their lives seeking something that no one could ever find: knowledge. Supreme knowledge, the will to understand how ALL works.

For me, God is the Universe itsself. And to respect God means to respect the environement you live in, respect the people you live amongst, and respect yourself.

So, don't pity me for not believing. I choose that myself. I could be wrong, but it is I that I am wrong.

[Dude_Doc]

For example, the state is influenced by organizations that ''donate'' to their election campaighns and also simply have a firm grasp on the balls of that state's economy.

Indeed. But keep in mind that a state also works as a corporation, although different. If one is to achieve true freedom, then that is to achieve a world where there are no corporations or states that can abuse power.

And observing this one, should take note that we hardly seem to be on the verge of communist revolution, and yet even most history syllabus seems to refuse to admit the difference between stalinism and communism.

I think true communism is far off. It will take time. It has only been 15 years since the fall of stalinism, and it is true that China, Vietnam, North Korea and Laos has pursued other ways of dealing with reality. We must also keep in mind that many of the conglomerate-masters who are in control today have "soviet communism" on their minds, and it will require a new generation, maybe even two or three, to get rid of the old thinking.

Maybe we even have to wait until the real horrors and monstrousities of capitalism emerge (such as a global corporation with unimaginable powers) before people can start thinking about what world they're really living in.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I respect the people who believe in a diety or other, because they have the courage to no ask questions and to be happy without wondering too much WHY. I cannot do that. I'm one of those idiots that run after a ghost all their lives seeking something that no one could ever find: knowledge. Supreme knowledge, the will to understand how ALL works.

Well

[TMA_1]

great post Sneakgab

[Davidu]

Hmm... truth is an odd concept. It's like good and evil. I wrote somewhere in fanfic that you cannot understand good without evil. And when you are trying the most to live in a "good" world, the more you'll see the "evil" in it.

I think these two concepts should be unseparated. Bad things will always happend, but we must acknowledge them. Not try to bann them from our lives. They're still there.

Quite a similar thing with the truth. Truth is relative to person. Or entity. You can like someone's truth or someone else's truth. And then you say that someone is "right". It's all about points of view. On how we see and understand things.

Knowledge for me... ha! Well, I know that I cannot phisically or mentally cope with ALL the knowledge in the world. Universe. Existance planes. It would drive me insane. So, I'm trying to mix it with living my life, this pursuit of knowledge.

And yes, that's right, when we'll die we'll surely know if there's a diety or not. I'm very curious about death, but I'm not hurrying.  ;D

[GUNWOUNDS]

Quite a similar thing with the truth. Truth is relative to person. Or entity. You can like someone's truth or someone else's truth. And then you say that someone is "right". It's all about points of view. On how we see and understand things.

I dunno about that Davidu... if truth was truly relative then we wouldnt be able to have law.