Replacement for Oil or Space Travel

[TheRedDuke05]

If we have a smart president in the USA (by the way how do I put an American flag under my name like you guys do?) what do you think we should concentrate more on:

A. Replacement for Oil so we can nuke the middle east and have less muslim terroists attacking Western Areas

or

B. Concentrate more on Space Exploration, so we can hopefully find a habital planet or make a inhospitable one habital so when Earth finally loses all the trees (and oxygen) due to expanding citys we have a  replacement planet.

[Andrew]

(by the way how do I put an American flag under my name like you guys do?)

Top of any forum page, click on membermap, then click on place your pin at top of page. Select your country, save pin and the flag should be there.

C. Renewable energy. When was the last time there was no wind, sun, or water(dams, wave thingies) on Earth? umm, billion years ago?

Renewable = answer

Space travel ??

[Acriku]

I'm thinking that a renewable source of energy would eliminate most of the world's top oil companies' hold on our proverbial balls. Where nuking is probably not an option, economical independence is. There is a chance of space exploration and experimentation to breed new ways of gathering and using the abundant energy found in the Sun.

[GUNWOUNDS]

i agree with andrew... renewable = the answer.

space travel will only gain us ores and such that we probably already have in abundance here on Earth.... i dont think there will ever be an iron shortage, etc, etc.  As we havent even begun to tap 1% of even the earth's crust.  Has man even passed through the crust?  I think we havent (not sure).

Anyways add to the fact that space travel is so damn expensive it totally ruins the profitability of any resource we might find on mars or some such planet.

[TheRedDuke05]

But we have to get away from this solar system eventually since the Sun will go nova in like 3 billion years  :-

[Andrew]

At the rate humanity is advancing (past 100 years compared to past thousand), barring a disaster that wipes humanity out or stagnates us, I would hope in 1 billion years we are traveling other galaxies.

[nemafakei]

If we start to seriously move off this planet with society being roughly what we have today, then the plutocracy, self-interest and corruption will mean the vast majority of us won't see a single benefit of humanity's progress.

Moreover, if we carry on cunsuming at the rate we're going, we may not even get that far.

If we can finish development on cleaner energy, recycle on a large enough scale to make it a big economic advantage, and rectify our income distribution problems, then we might be in a fit state to launch serious expeditions.

[TheRedDuke05]

What we really need to do is make one large country instead of like a 100 of them so we can stop spending money on killing each other and start consentrating on important stuff like replacing oil with something renewable like water or plants or something. If we do that then we probably could concentrate on space more.

However, to have world peace you must have a world war, and sometimes genocide is nessesary since some nations are so stubborn on their beleifs (like the Middle East) that they will hinder making humanity from being trully effective.

[The_Sadukar]

Let me ask you a simpel question. Who would rule that country?

[GUNWOUNDS]

George Bush XXXII  of course.

[TheRedDuke05]

Nah, It will be a clone of Stalin or Hitler  ::)

[The_Sadukar]

Which makes we wonder why any besides either the Americans, the Russians or the Germans would want to join it.

[Acriku]

Find a common goal or enemy, and you got yourself cooperation among countries.

[TheRedDuke05]

Well thats the point, humans are too stupied to get over their petty animal needs and have to bicker about everything. There will never be just one nation on Earth unless aliens attack or something, but even then, when it's over we would still be killing each other.

[Dude_Doc]

A. Replacement for Oil so we can nuke the middle east and have less muslim terroists attacking Western Areas

You do realize that the world would turn against the US? Just look what happened when they attacked Iraq. Besides, the Middle East are good trading partners... :)

B. Concentrate more on Space Exploration, so we can hopefully find a habital planet or make a inhospitable one habital so when Earth finally loses all the trees (and oxygen) due to expanding citys we have a  replacement planet.

Well, G. W. Bush already said that he wanted a finished moon base by 2030 or something, no? I also think he said that Mars was going to be landed on in this century.

And I don't think we will overconsume the world until there is not a single tree left. And even if we do that, we won't get that far because by then the world will be so poisoned that trees can't exist in the soil.

I'm thinking that a renewable source of energy would eliminate most of the world's top oil companies' hold on our proverbial balls.

Well, first we need to actually find that kind of source. Second, the oil companies won't just step down. They'll do everything and anything within their powers to stop a renewable energy source. There's already cars that can drive without oil, but still, they're making millions. They're sending troops to protect the oil transportations from the Middle East, building bases, etc. The number is... huge.

Anyways add to the fact that space travel is so damn expensive it totally ruins the profitability of any resource we might find on mars or some such planet.

We're sending up spaceships in space every year. It is already clear that the costs are already unecessary high in relation to the experiment - which often does not result in any breaking new scientific discovery. Not to mention the high risk just to get above the athmosphere...

But we have to get away from this solar system eventually since the Sun will go nova in like 3 billion years

6 billion. :)

What we really need to do is make one large country instead of like a 100 of them so we can stop spending money on killing each other and start consentrating on important stuff like replacing oil with something renewable like water or plants or something.

Most economists already agree that a one world government's economy would fail rather fast. And that's kind of the answer to all the world's problems.

If we do that then we probably could concentrate on space more.

Until the day the people on Mars declare independence... :D

However, to have world peace you must have a world war, and sometimes genocide is nessesary since some nations are so stubborn on their beleifs (like the Middle East) that they will hinder making humanity from being trully effective.

Why must we have a world war in order to have world peace? The world is already a much better place than what it was 50 years ago. And it isn't like every human in the Middle East believes that they must kill everybody in order to survive. In fact, Islam strictly forbids the adoring of nations (i.e. nationalism, patriotism) since that would be like love to the materialistic ground instead of loving God. In fact, religion always comes before one's nation - it was so before, and it is that way now, although (like I said) some religions are lighter on the "love your country" part.

Besides, we always hear the US talk about the "American people" and "our country" and so on, isn't that patriotic and stubbornly "selfish", like you said?

Let me ask you a simpel question. Who would rule that country?

The Jews of course! Or the Illuminati! Or the aliens!

No, really. If a world government would in the first place be a reality - then why must "someone" rule it? Why not a union? A federal government? A global confederation? And even when there is a global country, there are still thousands of different corporations, gangsters, cults, religions and so on. Not to mention all the trouble there would be from nationalists and those groups, the conflict in Israel and Palestine is exactly a result of religious matters.

[TheRedDuke05]

I would of said the US as well but I don't know if the government is watching  :-

[Dude_Doc]

I would have said the US as well but I don't know if the government is watching

What is that supposed to mean?

[TheRedDuke05]

Well we do have the Patriot Act that basicly gives the government the right to spy on your phone calls, emails, and other electronic stuff which bascily violates the constitution of the U.S. And America is not what I would call the worlds most peaceful nation  ::)

[Dude_Doc]

Well we do have the Patriot Act that basicly gives the government the right to spy on your phone calls, emails, and other electronic stuff

There is already a global spy system, Echelon, if you haven't heard about it. Besides, haven't the US government already spied on it's citizens since, like, 50 years ago at the start of the Cold War?

Besides, so long you or anybody here don't have a serious, well-planned discussion about bombing something in the US... well, you get the point.

which bascily violates the constitution of the U.S.

And the constitution also gives the people of the US right to rise up against the government if it is corrupted and misleading - but since such things can only succeed through planning, those will look like terrorists planning an attack. Quite a paradox, is it not?

And America is not what I would call the worlds most peaceful nation

;D

[Dante]

We haven't breached the Earth's crust, though the mantle does have channels to the surface (volcanos).

But we have to get away from this solar system eventually since the Sun will go nova in like 3 billion years

[Acriku]

One country will never work, and attempts to unite the world through force are doomed to utter failure.

I think we should stray from the idea of a common single country and move closer to the idea of a united state system. A large rather successful example of this is America. In each state, you find different cultures and different populations that, while sometimes very different, work together under a unification - the United States. If we gather the countries of the world and call each a state of a bigger union, then there resolves a lot of problems that simply having one country would create.

[Dude_Doc]

1) Why should we care?

Why should we not care?

2) All things end, sooner or later.

By that logic, everybody could just as well commit suicide. Why not? Everything will end anyways!

If humans were really smart they'd cut the expansionist crap and look after what they've got rather than looking elsewhere...

But if you want your economy to expand then you must expand physically, may it even be other planets.

Trees are a renewable source of energy, in that they grow again.

Yes, but trees also grow slowly - since obviously we have cut down a considerable part of the amazon jungle and the African jungle too. My point was that if we didn't consider planting new trees, and just continued cutting them down like mindless zombies, then by the time we would reach the last tree, the world would have turned into a poisoness hole.

The problem is with non-renewable sources, such as coal or oil, and to a lesser extent metals such as iron. These are finite resources, and it wouldn't matter if we had eighteen planets to mine, they would run out sooner or later.

Yes - but those planets would give us a bigger supply of those minerals.

They already squish any attempts to loosen their monopoly. But the thing about oil companies is that they are only weakening themselves. When the oil runs out, they're finished. The smart ones would diversify into renewables.

Well, they're sure as hell to invent something new. I don't think they'll get a note one day with a "sorry, the oil is up, time to close the corps." to them. I guess we'll see in the future.

The number varies, depending on who you wish to believe.

It's just the number I've heard most of them all when it comes down to the end of the solar system.

[Dante]

Why should we not care?

Because... we'll all be dead.

By that logic, everybody could just as well commit suicide. Why not? Everything will end anyways!

That doesn't mean that we have to hasten the process.

But if you want your economy to expand then you must expand physically, may it even be other planets.

Trade with other countries. It works.

Yes - but those planets would give us a bigger supply of those minerals.

Not big enough. If it's finite, it isn't big enough. Besides, what right have we to mine out other planets? Isn't emptying one enough?

Well, they're sure as hell to invent something new. I don't think they'll get a note one day with a "sorry, the oil is up, time to close the corps." to them. I guess we'll see in the future.

Oil companies sans oil =

[Edric O]

First of all, the Sun will never go nova - it is much too small for that. What will happen is the following: As the Sun consumes its reserves of hydrogen by transforming it into helium through nuclear fusion, several gradual changes will start to occur. Helium itself will begin to be used as fuel for nuclear fusion, producing heavier elements in the core. Hydrogen fusion will ignite outside the core, expanding the Sun's outer layers. The Sun will gain in volume, but keep the same mass. As a result, it will have a lower density and the outer layers will grow cooler - thus, its colour will go from the current yellow, through various shades of orange, to red. The Sun's volume will keep increasing until it swallows Mercury, then Venus, and then stops somewhere in the vicinity of Earth. The Earth itself may or may not be swallowed by the Sun, but it will in any case be reduced to a ball of molten lava. The Sun's transformation will take it from being a main sequence yellow star (as it is now) to being a red giant. The process will be complete 5 billion years in the future. 5 billion years is also the age the Sun has right now. In other words, the Sun is right now pretty much right in the middle of its "life" as a yellow star. As such, life on Earth itself is also in its "middle age". The time we have ahead of us is more or less equal to the time we have behind us.

Life on Earth will most likely become impossible some time before the Sun's transformation is complete; 3-4 billion years seems like a reasonable estimate for how long we can stay here. The Sun won't be a full red giant in 3-4 billion years, but it will large and bright enough to fry the Earth.

And in case you're wondering, the Sun will only spend a very short time - probably around 100 million years - as a red giant. After that, it will start blowing away its own outer layers, slowly stripping itself of gas until only the core remains. The core will then become a white dwarf - a dim, decaying star of high density that no longer performs nuclear fusion and just radiates residual energy instead.

[Dude_Doc]

Because... we'll all be dead.

But that is the sole reason for us to go into space in the first place! That is the secret program running inside all of us: to survive, to reproduce. That, is our mission.

That doesn't mean that we have to hasten the process.

Why not? What will our existance mean in the endlesness of time to follow after our end?

Trade with other countries. It works.

Yeah, well. I guess I can't argue much since I suck at economy.

Not big enough.

But all those minerals would mean something like Earth times 18 or something - not big enough?

If it's finite, it isn't big enough.

18 planets is not big enough?

Besides, what right have we to mine out other planets? Isn't emptying one enough?

What right do we have to mine our own moon? Or land exploration-robots on Mars? Or do anything for that matter? Is there a huge, enormous universal "Human Constitution/Law" that forbids us from going to other planets, explore the universe and so on?

A planet in space is just that - a planet in space. No one controls it. The civilization that finds it first, naturally, own it, or administer it - just like every other organic being. Naturally, organics are wiped out if they do not have the means to survive - but if they do survive, their mission is to reproduce and survive in any way they see fit - no matter what. Then, of course, if the civilization is kind-hearted and compassionate, they can always respect other beings right of administering their own planets.