Connections between Dune and Christianity

[Mahdi]

This hit me the other day, while watching T.V.

Looking at the characters of Paul, Liet, and Fenring, I noticed many simularities between them Jesus, John the Baptist, and someone whose name escapes me.

The man whose name escapes me was a would-be messiah during the time of Jesus, with at least as great a following as Jesus himself.  The Jewish people were torn between which of those three they thought were the Messiah, although Jesus and this other guy were the only ones who actually claimed to be the Messiah.  Like Fenring, this man was a possible Messiah, although in the end both failed.  Both were older than the "actual" messiah, and were in the same city as the "actual" messiah when the other "proved" it, with this guy being in Jerusalum when Jesus was executed, and Fenring in Arrakeen when Paul won the war.  Both of these people, while ahving great potential for changing the world, ended up being, for the most part, forgotten, lost in the brilliance of the actual Messiah.

John the Baptist was also thought to be the Messiah, but denied it, and prophosized the coming of him.  He is the one who baptized Jesus, at which point Jesus had the revelation which told him he was the son of God, and after the baptism, John said that he should have asked Jesus to baptize him, although he didn't actually reognize Jesus as the Messiah, possibly due to his being executed before the cruxification.  This relates to Liet, as Liet is the leader of the Fremen (as John was a leader of the Jews)  and is the one who sends Paul to the desert where he realizes that he is the mahdi.  Liet is also the older man (like John) whose followers went from him to Paul upon Lets death (like Johns followers went from him to Jesus upon his death).  John was executed by the puppet king of Isreal due to his prophecies and sermins (also because of the kings step-daughter/dancer) and Liet was executed by the "puppet" (debatable I guess) leader of Arrakis due to his saving of Paul and Jessica, because of his religious beliefs.  John is the last great prophet of the Hebrew (Jesus called him the greatest of the prophets) and Liets father was the last Umma (prophet) of the Fremen, and also one of the greatest.  Also, these great prophets came just before there messiahs.

As for Paul and Jesus, a lot of the similarities between them are mentioned above in the discrption of the similarities between the others.  In the end, Paul dies of his own choice (both in the walking into the sand and also the stabbing), like Jesus, both openly walked into the temples of the high priests and preached agaisnt them, gathering huge crowds, and now one even tried to stop them from doing so.  They were both executed becasue of this (Paul killed in the temple while preachinga gainst it, Jesus casting the straw that broke the camels back by throwing over the merchants tables).

Then there is the setting:  Desert for both, ruled by a puppet leader (the names of both start with "Har", Harkonnen and Harrod), the puppet leeader is controled by an all-powerful empire with an undefeatable army (roman legions and sarduakar), with severly oppressed desert people, a people which has spent much of its existence struggling for survival.

Finally, eahc of these is a group of three:  The Messiah, the prophet/guide, and the would-be messiah.

[exatreide]

I Predict a great flame war starting on this thread.

[daniel]

and i just joined lol

[nampigai]

I think you're right Mahdi, Frank Herbert draws alot of lines from our bible, It's kinda scarry. MAybe he's showing us that history is repeating?

[ordos45]

Seems like it, of course the human mind is so utterly complex yet simple-minded and wandering that it can often be easy to make connections where none seem to exist.  But on this point, I must agree with you Mahdi.

[quoudam72]

*brings more firewood to put on the fire. Says hello to everyone then throws two logs on the fire then sits down Indian style next to Ordos 45 and listens*

[exatreide]

Jesus that,Mosas that, Abraham hit me with a wiffle ball bat. J/k

[quoudam72]

Some of it I can see because it is the story of the creation of a messiah and his rise to power to lead a people and you can draw simuliar conculsions to any one of the monolithic faiths. That's one of the appealing factors about Herbert's Dune chronicles and how he walks a very thin line with his subject matter IMO.

[ordos45]

Must not forget the Yueh and Judas similarity.  Both sold out their leader.  Judas sold out Jesus for 30 pieces of silver and Yueh sold out the Duke for his wife's freedom.  Though Judas committed suicide for what he did, Yueah was killed by Harkonnens.

[quoudam72]

Yes Ordos45 that is another simularity within the Dune story. IMO I think it also has certain elements of the major religions.

[Ligic_Tha_Master]

Obviously Frank Herbert knows the bible well.

[quoudam72]

Not only that I would have to say he had a very insightful perspective on religion itself and the part it has played on mankind's evolution through the milenniums (IMO).

[nemafakei]

Damnit, what's that BG quote about religion? Oh yes...

"Religion is the emulation of the adult by the child"...

[dportela]

I think there's a LOT of other connections to be seen. Paul was in his death trance for three weeks, while Christ was in the tomb for three days (His body, anyway). During this time, Paul's spirit was elsewhere, as was Christ's. Just as Christ resurrected, so did Paul after his time in the trance, and just as Christ, through His death, achieved the final victory, so Paul was able to achive his victory through the prescience that was granted him by taking the Water of Life and being in the trance.

It seems that Frank borrowed heavily not only from the Bible, but from Islam as well. There are several religious Arabic words used in the Dune Chronicles, and in fact he makes it quite clear that the Fremen descended from a fusion of Islam and Buddhism. Elements of Buddhism are also seen in The Bene Gesserit training. Of course, all of these religions are warped, in a sense, from their origins. Christianity is not as strongly represented as a religion in the Dune universe, except for the theistic aspirations of the Tleilaxu (and these I have only read in the Dune Prequels, I just finished reading Dune - again - and am about to read Dune Messiah for the first time -- perhaps the Christian links will seem more apparent after that).

Good topic!  ;D

[nemafakei]

Religion is not very prominent in the 3 prequels, but it has sufficient mention and relevance in the original series.

[quoudam72]

Very much dportela and it takes much insight to understand that statement you made. Nema you could not be more right I think they (the writers of the prequels) did not want to go into it as deeply as Frank Herbert had before.

[dportela]

Fedaykin-Sandwalker, which statement?

And Nema Fakei, what I meant was that the theistic religious influence on the Tleilaxu was apparent in the prequels (no in depth, but apparent nonetheless). I haven't read the Chronicles yet, as I said I'm about to start Dune Messiah, but I know one of the books deals heavily with the Tleilaxu, so perhaps there will be added insights into their religious background there.

[nampigai]

Or maybe old Frankie was a better writer. I don't think that one can compare the books. they just exist in the same universe. I still like the prequels. But as you say there isn't any depht in them, it's just read and forget, where as Frank Herberts books give the brain something to work with.

[quoudam72]

Mainly your statements in your second paragraph, I should have been clearer in to what I was refering to pardon my vagueness.

[dportela]

Just finished reading Appendix II to Dune: "The Religion of Dune", and found some things that are relevant to this discussion. Now, keep in mind that I'm a philosophy major and a religious person myself, so I may be going too in-depth in some of my observations, but bear with me and you might grab a mite or two to chew on.

The so-called Ancient Teachings -- including those preserved by the Zensunni Wanderers from the first, second, and third Islamic movements; the Navachristianity of Chusuk, the Buddislamic Variants of the types dominant at Lankiveil and Sikun, the Blend Books fo the Mahayana Lankavatara, the Zen Hekiganshu of III Delta Pavonis, the Tawrah and Talmudic Zabur surviving on Salusa Secundus, the pervasive Obeah Ritual, the Muadh Quran with its pure Ilm and Fiqh preserved among the pundi rice farmers of Caladan, the Hindu outcroppings found all through the universe in the little pockets of insulated pyons, and finally, the Butlerian Jihad.

From that paragraph, we can deduce that Herbert crafted these future religions by mixing Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and a few other present-day religions. A few of these "mixes" can already be seen, such as the watered-down versions of Christianity, infused with New Age principles (which are in essence plucked from Eastern Religions and cut off from their roots), which anyone can see on TBN. Or the Buddhist/Islamic crossovers apparent mainly on the countries of South Asia, where the two religions have come together into a melting pot. There are also blends of Judaism and Christianity, although these are much more subtle because Christianity is an outgrowth of Judaism, in terms, and it's hard to pinpoint exactly what is what in the mix (although a serious Christian or Jew will be able to spot them right away).

During this period, it was said that Genesis was reinterpreted, permitting God to say: "Increase and multiply, and fill the universe, and subdue it, and rule over all manner of strange beasts and living creatures in the infinite airs, on the infinite earths and beneath them."

I find it interesting that Frank thought about this. I don't believe the original passage in Genesis needs reinterpretation. After all, it is dealing with Creation and God's instructions to man. It seems to me that its implications are clear enough, as man grows to the point where he can expand his occupation into outer space. Just as we don't need specific commands by God to build computers, perform scientific experiments, earn money, and do other things which are part of our lives, the same applies to the natural expansion of civilization. It needs no justification. I wonder what Herbert was thinking about when he wrote this, guess I'll never know.

"We are here to remove a primary weapon from the hands of disputant religions. That weapon -- the claim to possession of the one and only revelation."

Heh, when I read this I thought of the World Council of Churches...they have been trying to do precisely this for a while. I don't think they were around when Frank was writing the book, but it sure is interesting that he thought of it a long time ago. The thing is, the things most religions have in common is not "Thou shalt not disfigure the soul.", as the C.E.T. thought, but "There is absolute truth, and we have found it." This core principle goes against the very heart of any effort to combine religions. In fact, I would dare to say that at the point one attempts to combine religions, one loses the very essence of religious belief, and is left with nothing but meaningless words and shallow ideas. And this is precisely what happened with the Orange Catholic Bible:

The O.C. Bible was denounced as a work produced by "the hubris of reason." It was said that its pages were filled with a seductive interest in logic.

Interestingly enough, Herbert seemed to understand this as well. He portrays the Fremen religion as being constructed from elements of other religions, but the Fremen firmly believed they had the truth, and that others did not. And thus, the true core of any religious system moved forward:

Omens help you remember this. And because you are here, because you have the religion, victory cannot evade you in the end.

True religion cannot promise anything if it does not claim a hold on truth. It cannot promise peace, self-improvement, eternal life, or anything else if it does not place itself as the revelation. And that's why any effort that approximates the Orange Catholic Bible (such as the WCC) will ultimately fail, because in removing each religion's claim to revelation, it removes its very foundation.

As I said before, good topic!  8)

[ordos45]

dportela, those were really, really, really good points that none of us has ever looked up before.   :)

Anyhow, before I go into more unsteady ground let me quote our BG friends," Every religion has one commandment above others.  Thou Shall Not Question!"  Well in the current NIV (New International Version) of the Bible it has that we should question, and that Jesus did encourage questioning because once you questioned and found your faith solid, then your faith would be renewed that much stronger.  (or something like that)  

[nampigai]

I think everyone's got some very good points. I was just thinking that, the word the Muad'Dib was spread with violence, as was Islam, I now it's a lausy point but it just stroke me.

[Mahdi]

Well in the current NIV (New International Version) of the Bible it has that we should question, and that Jesus did encourage questioning because once you questioned and found your faith solid, then your faith would be renewed that much stronger.

[nampigai]

You got me wrong I think. I ment that when Islam was first spread it was by the sword. I know that Islam should mean peace, heard it in some tv-show once.

[Mahdi]

Very few religions arn't spread by the sword.