Israel

[Dante]

In other words, "no."

What if you were forced by an invading force to leave this house? Would that change the subject?

Not really, since it wouldn't belong to me then either. Now if it were my house, that I had lived in, then it might be different. Those people who were born in Israel and regard it as their home have a right to be there. But the house did not belong to me, it belonged to an ancestor, and if some invading force kicked him out then it would be his job to get it back. Not mine.

In other words, claiming a land as your own because you were born in it is acceptable. Claiming that you have a right to land because some vague ancestors lived there is absurd. If that were the case then I could claim ownership of property in Ireland, Edinburgh, Stirling, Croy, South Africa, and Australia. Which incidentally, I don't.

[XenoForever]

leo you've brought up a point that's often overlooked, the amount of Palestinians with Israeli citizenship...I so rarely hear about it, could you expound upon it?

By the Law of Citizenship(1953), all who sat in Israel before the law have passed has the right to become a citizen. Unfortunately, the law included some of the arabs aswell.

[Shiroko]

Every people has their right for independence, and the Jews have undeniable connection to Israel even if our ancestors were banished and because of that we were denied the heritage of the ground, Jews did not left Israel because they immigrated to better economies but because they were driven away. I'm more than fine with settling the land with the palestinians and spliting it half in half (Or whatever will seem most reasonable). I believe all minorities deserve their autonomy, but that terror is not the way to get it. Means of terror should be fought back and made extinct, they threaten economies and freedom.

On the analogy side, if my grandfather's house would be taken by force, I can reclaim it since I would have been the legal owner of it. The example is known for stolen art mostly and less for houses, but criminal laws supports the Jews on this analogy.

-Shiroko

[TMA_1]

I am just curious Dante, for my own info. Do you believe that israel has a right to exist? And if so, on what terms?

[Dante]

Hmm. You know, up until you asked me that I just didn't care. Whether Israel had a 'right' to exist was ignored, and I concentrated on the arguments instead. Hm.

Yes. I do believe Israel has a right to exist (I typed 'no,' first time, but then thought about it for a bit more). However, I do not believe that it has a right to exist where it is now, nor under present conditions.

Historically, persecuted groups of people have fled oppressive regimes and the like to lands far away that nobody else wanted or cared about. The Puritans leaving Europe for America, for example. The Saxons coming to England. The Scots arriving in Scotland. What they have not done is find a piece of land that has historical signifiance to them and try to push the inhabitants off it. That would create conflict. If the Jews want a seperate state, they should go and find one, not take someone else's.

Also, this is taking the word 'Jew' to mean someone of the Jewish race, rather than the Jewish faith. This is not because of racial descrimination, but because I believe that though a seperate race may deserve its own state (see Poland below), a seperate religion certainly does not. Far too petty.

I should point out that I do not base any of my arguments on support for the Palestinians, or a wish to work against the Israelis. Or vice versa. Frankly I don't care much for either side, and my arguments are theoretical rather than practical.

I like to draw a parallel between this case and that of Poland. Poland was divided up by Russia, Prussia, and Austria, sometime during the eighteenth century. It was only during the twentieth century that Poland was reinstated as a nation state, much to the joy of the Poles, who had been oppressed in the three countries. I believe that this was the right decision.

Now, all of the Poles who had been around at the time of the division were dead, much like the ancient Jews now. Thus this is no justification for creating Poland where it resides today.

However the area that is now Poland, while certainly holding other races, was primarily composed of Poles. It made sense to put it there, and there have been few complaints. Israel, on the other hand, was placed smack in the middle of lands belonging to other people. Not a wise decision.

So, I believe that Israel has a right to exist because the Jews (as a people, not a faith) have been persecuted for centuries and because if they want freedom from the rest of us then they are entitled to it. However, I do not believe that it should be placed in the middle of lands that have belonged to Arabs for centuries, and I do not believe that having ancient relatives in the area justifies the placement. Poland was put in the same place as the original Poland because there happened to be a lot of Poles there. Makes sense. Israel, on the other hand, had a lot of Arabs. Silly.

Every people has their right for independence, and the Jews have undeniable connection to Israel even if our ancestors were banished and because of that we were denied the heritage of the ground, Jews did not left Israel because they immigrated to better economies but because they were driven away.

The families of York, Lancaster, Tudor and Stewart have all held the British crown, and lost it in much the same way as the Jews lost their land. None of them try to get it back now, despite the fact that for all of them it was an 'ancestral birthright.' They had it, they lost it. That's how it goes.

On the analogy side, if my grandfather's house would be taken by force, I can reclaim it since I would have been the legal owner of it. The example is known for stolen art mostly and less for houses, but criminal laws supports the Jews on this analogy.

Except that you have your own house, you don't need his. And the people who took it have been living there for years. They took it, and view it as their own.

Finally, I should once again state that I have no innate bias towards either side. You can call them Israeli, Jewish, Palestinian, Arab, but I just treat them as Side A and Side B.

[VigilVirus]

And furthermore, I think that the majority of the world does not recognize Israeli right to the land.

I don't think this is the case, but people with your opinions are often as antisemi as you. Obviously since pearls of wisdom like: "You were brought up to believe that everyone hates you and persecutes you because you are part of the chosen race and better than the rest" are either pure ignorance or someone has been reading the zionist protocols too many times.

-Shiroko

You Israelis always call people who argue against you antisemetic. It's a truly pathetic response in order to defend yourself. Thinking that Israel was a bad idea is not the same as hating jews. You should get your facts straight. The phrase that you quoted from me was an example of propaganda you might have been exposed to, and in fact I'm sure you have. It's just rooted so deep within you you fail to see it anymore. Jews have always believed themselves to be the chosen race anyhow, at least the orthodox jews - it's in the Old Testament.

[nemafakei]

Please stop this generalisation upon generalisation.

[GUNWOUNDS]

omg... deviladvocate... by repeating that "chosen people" crap over and over it only reinforces everyone's opinion about you.

[Dante]

He does have a point, though. I mean neither side is going to bring up their children to believe that their cause is unjustified, are they?

[ordos45]

He does have a point, though. I mean neither side is going to bring up their children to believe that their cause is unjustified, are they?

Most likely no.  Once again I'd like to shamelessly plug the documentary "Shooting Conflicts" (What is this...24th time in the PRP board?).  Towards the end both guys, Israeli and Palestinian, have families, and both consider immigrating elsewhere so as to not raise their children amongst the violence and propaganda.  Neither wanted to see their kids continue the fight in the future.

My point with this illustration?  Despite the fact neither side will most likely raise their children to believe their cause is unjustified, both sides can undoubtedly wish for a better world for their children than the one they currently live in.

[VigilVirus]

omg... deviladvocate... by repeating that "chosen people" crap over and over it only reinforces everyone's opinion about you.

[Caid Ivik]

Semits are not only Israel (as nation), it is a large race including Arabs and most of other north-african and crescent nations as well. In Israel (as state), there are some non-semitic ethnics, you find there Greeks, Armens and also Filistines. But majority is of arab or jewish - dh semitic - origin. Same in Jordan and Libanon, where Filistines were also making chaos. This unwillingness to subdue to semitic governments can be easily interpreted as anything else, than pure antisemitism...

[GUNWOUNDS]

@deviladvocate --->

[leo]

lol nope, the vast majority of the society is secular. Besides that, the orthodox Jews don't even serve in the army.

[GUNWOUNDS]

lol nope, the vast majority of the society is secular. Besides that, the orthodox Jews don't even serve the army.

hehe well i guess deviladvocate's

[Caid Ivik]

I heard even that there are some ways in orthodoxy, which don't even accept Israel as a state, as it was a heretical concept. Resembling something...

[leo]

Yep, not only that they don't accept Israel they basically hate the country, if you look close at some of the anti Israeli demonstrations in the USA with a lot of Arabs you may see few orthodox Jews among them from time to time - looks very strange and confusing. There is a big community in the USA called "The Sattmers" and there are few communities in Israel itself.

[TMA_1]

well the term "antisemetic" usually refers to those who have an unfounded and harsh (or hateful) bent against the jews. There are other ethnic groups, like the arabs, that are semetic as well. Still though it almost always refers to the jews themselves.

and yeah there are some extremely extremely religiously radical jews who believe that the jewish state shouldnt exist because it has to be created by the messiah, and not by a secular, or even a devout government.

Devil's Advocate. I can tell you dont hate jewish people, and you are not attacking individual jews. The problem is that the jewish people, more than any other ethnic group, are hated so deeply. You can see this antisemetism in governments all over the world. From certain countries in south america, all the way to the far east like China. The jewish people have never found a stable home because they are unjustly hunted in cruelty wherever they go. The jewish people need a home, and where else could they stay other than their home, the home in which they so deeply and passionately love. I dont understand that kind of love, as I have never had roots as deep as that, but I do understand that it is indeed a deep love and desire to live in their original homeland. People like Theodore Herzl who really started the push for zionism were actually going to be given land in central africa for a jewish state. People like Theodore Herzl actually almost agreed to this, but then realized taht they couldnt take that land because it wasent their true home.

The jewish people need a home of their own Devil's Advocate. Too few nations accept the jewish people as a whole, and the only way that there is a haven of protection is if they have their own homeland. They have just as much right to be in the homeland as those muslims and christians who already were living there. The jewish people have always had a large minority of people in their homeland, and it seems fitting that they should be able to live there.

I have my own opinions on the palistinian people and I will mention my opinions here, but mind you they are jsut MY PERSONAL opinions, and do not reflect anybody elses unless they openly agree to them.

The palistinian people are not a specific ethnic group. Instead they are actually just a populous runoff from nations like syria, jordan, and egypt. Once borders were set in the middle east by england and other western nations, there was much strife between the newly sectioned off nations. Not just in Palistine, but also in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and other nations.

But specifically in Palistine, the palistinian people are not their own set group, but as I said just runoff from other neighboring muslim nations around Palistine. The Jewish people were granted a homeland in israel eventaully, and when this happened, the jewish people were attacked by muslim Neighbors not as much because they had taken land, but because many of the muslims hated the jews and didnt want them to have their own state.

[Shiroko]

Look devil, I don't mean offending you, I hate the "Lets call him antisemi"  approach that I do think is overused. But your statements on Jews as I said are either antisemi or ignorance, seeing your last two posts I'd go for ignorance and as my fellow Israelis to the forum said already, only the minority of Israelis are in fact religious, and even less are orthodox. Israel has been stated on racist term of Jews and not because of the religion. Some Orthodox still oppose Israel as a country (Waiting for the messiah and stuff....) and the religious stream of Zionism grew only much later (Though it leads the zionism today). Most of Israel as not religious, I hope this clears some stuff up.

Also the old testamony, does state the Jews as a chosen people, and if you'll read more than this line you'd probably see that it tells to treat all other people living in in Israeli with full respect and not discrimnate them. (Though I'd admit this had its highs and lows)

So anyway, devil, I'd recommend reading some more on Israel and the Israelis in it currently, I believe you might be surprised to see it's not what you imagined.

Not the most objective site but you've been reading worse stuff I guess:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa

-Shiroko

[VigilVirus]

Let's assume that most jews are not religious, which I find hard to believe. Most of the secular jews still share the education that is taught to the religious jews. They may not come to strongly embrace judaeism, but they share a lot of similar core beliefs.

[GUNWOUNDS]

ok buddy you are grasping at straws now.

[veritas]

Let's assume that most jews are not religious, which I find hard to believe.

Cited from Israel Religious Action Center.

80.2% of Israel

[leo]

Let's assume that most jews are not religious, which I find hard to believe. Most of the secular jews still share the education that is taught to the religious jews. They may not come to strongly embrace judaeism, but they share a lot of similar core beliefs.

How can I "share the education that is taught to the religious Jews" if I eat pork and barely ever looked into the bible?

[Shiroko]

Let's assume that most jews are not religious,

We don't have to assume, the govermant's statistics department confirms it (And the parliment also confirms it).

which I find hard to believe.

Well... start believing

Most of the secular jews still share the education that is taught to the religious jews.

No they don't, the education systems are seperate, and aside for bible lessons on schools, which aren't taught from the religious aspect (Meaning it's explained by bibical studies that assume the bible is simply litrature and not written with direction from god).

They may not come to strongly embrace judaeism, but they share a lot of similar core beliefs.

Working on Saturday, eating pork, bread on passover and many others things are not shared at most. In fact there's a serious fight between the religious jews and the secular jews. The third biggest party is in fact a anti-religious party.

-Shiroko

[GUNWOUNDS]

assuming that all jews are religious and share the same education is like assuming all americans go to catholic school....which is obviously false....