Israel

[Shiroko]

Devil's Advocate, I really think you should read a little about the israeli-palestinains conflict before writing all this stuff. Israeli forces don't target "palestinain mothers" as the goal. While the Hamas does. Israel also enforces its fanatics mucg better than the palestinians (Not good at all to my taste, but defintely much better than the palestinians who move freely nowadays and before the last outbreak of violance).

Jews should have a country, and it is your problem. Since all world countries were haunting jews for centuries and didn't want them around. The result is the holocaust, and even the US ignored the holocaust and let it continue throuth WWII. If so much of the world doesn't want us in their countries, it is fair to give us a country. And if we get a country we should get the land were the Israeli nation first came to defintion. Sure, it was conquered back then 3500 years ago, but every land was conquered. Including where you live in. Jews deserve a land on Israel, and so does the palestinains. All I wish them is to control their fanatics and settle, sure not all Israelis think like me, but I do stand for the majority here. If the palestinians would give up their wanting to throw us from all of Israel (Or simply control the groups of them that want this) everything will turn out o.k.

Until then Israel has the right to do anything to protect its citizens, and I'd rather have the palestinian people that harbor the terror against me killed than me. Maybe I'm just selfish. I donnu...

-Shiroko

[VigilVirus]

Maybe I'm just selfish. I donnu...

-Shiroko

Yeah...you're an israeli. You can't possibly view this question objectively. You were brought up to believe that everyone hates you and persecutes you because you are part of the chosen race and better than the rest. Holocaust was a disaster, but it was not unprecedented. It doesn't entitle /you/ to anything unless of course you directly suffered in it? I didn't think so. Why does humanity believe that it can wash away its sins by rewarding future generations?

Israeli army are no better than terrorists. They destroy specific targets at times, yes, but a lot of the time they bomb indiscriminantly. At this point it doesn't matter who has the right to the land. The jews came as outsiders and were the most major cause to this conflict.

At least they are freeing Gaza now, West Bank should be next and then things might quiet down a bit.

Wolfwiz: Of course, neither side is right, but in this case, it's Israel that possesses the military and political might. Yet they choose to act just like the desperate and homeless palestinians.

[ordos45]

Shiroko has a point, his people do enforce their fanatics better than the Palestinian Authority/Palestine Liberation Organization does.  A good case in point was in the 1970s I believe it was, a group of Jewish terrorists wished to blow up the Dome of the Rock, even had the explosives, but the nation of Israel stopped them.

Yeah...you're an israeli. You can't possibly view this question objectively. You were brought up to believe that everyone hates you and persecutes you because you are part of the chosen race and better than the rest. Holocaust was a disaster, but it was not unprecedented. It doesn't entitle /you/ to anything unless of course you directly suffered in it? I didn't think so. Why does humanity believe that it can wash away its sins by rewarding future generations?

I'm an American though, so by your logic I can view it objectively, unless you wish to say as a Christian I can't view it objectively.  Of course, it could be said as a Christian I would hate Jews given the past relations such as the indiscriminate killing of Jews in the Crusade.  The point of this little rant on objectivity?  There is no such thing, everyone has subjective views depending on how they were raised, and what propaganda they were fed as they were raised. 

The Holocaust indeed was not unprecedented.  For Centuries Passion Plays were used to incite anti-Jewish riots in Europe.  During the Crusades many Crusaders killed Jews as well as Muslims.    The Jews were enslaved by several other foreign powers.  Even in World War Two, Shiroko pointed out that America turned its back on the Jews, and he's correct, we sent back entire ships of Jewish refugees to Germany because we didn't want them.

You're right it doesn't entitle him to anything in modern times as he did not suffer, however, at the time it was felt the Jews deserved their own nation.  They were given a small strip of arid land with some nomadic peoples on it.  They agreed to it, the nomads that would later settle down did not.  As soon as it became a nation, Israel was attacked by five nations, and drove them back, and took the Palestinian territories by force, something any other nation would have done in a similar war.  Now, we come back to the present age where you say he doesn't deserve anything because of the Holocaust.  He doesn't, but the nation of Israel has existed for sixty years now, entire generations have been born and died in Israel, it is in fact, their nation of birth.  You can't drive the Jews from Israel now, because it is indeed the nation they have been born into.  The same can be said of the Palestinians.  (A really good documentary is "Shooting Conflicts", it follows an Israeli cameraman and Palestinian cameraman over the course of years, their daily lives, and how each of them feels about the existence of Israel, etc.)

Humanity rewards future generations out of an ex post facto guilt complex.  We can't make something right that has gone past, but we can try to make it better by rewarding future generations to soothe our consciences.

Yet they choose to act just like the desperate and homeless palestinians.

Far from homeless.  Their 'refugee camps' are better housing than a lot of American neighborhoods I've been in.

[Shiroko]

Why does humanity believe that it can wash away its sins by rewarding future generations?

It doesn't, but it is meant to prevent its sins in the future. That's why we fight to remember the holocaust, that's also why Western nations will somewhat try to get a Tsunami warning system in Southeast Asia, because it's all related.

You can't change the past, you can prevent it from rehappening, if you don't learn anything from it your bound to the same mistakes.

-Shiroko

[TMA_1]

in my opinion, the problem I have with your arguments devil's advocate is that you seem just as biased towards one side as others who debate on this issue. Anybody who says the jewish state shouldnt exist has an obvious bias. It is silly to attack another person for having opposing views and telling them that they dont relaly have a say in the argument when you have the opposite opposing views.

[GUNWOUNDS]

i agree with ordos.. there is no such thing as an objective view in this matter.... EVERYONE  will be biased due to the brainwashing/propaganda we recieved  growing up.

[VigilVirus]

in my opinion, the problem I have with your arguments devil's advocate is that you seem just as biased towards one side as others who debate on this issue. Anybody who says the jewish state shouldnt exist has an obvious bias. It is silly to attack another person for having opposing views and telling them that they dont relaly have a say in the argument when you have the opposite opposing views.

If you make a claim like that you need to back it up, my friend. What is the reason for my bias? Whether Israel exists or not has no bearing on my daily life as clearly opposed to Shiroko, who lives there. And your sentence "Anybody who says the jewish state shouldn't exists has an obvious bias" has no weight whatsoever. What even makes you say that?

I'm aware that there's no such thing as a truly objective view, but there's relative objectivity. I can assure you that I'm much more objective on this subject than an israeli or a palestinian, simply because of the fact that I do not hold hatred for either of the group and I don't call that piece of land my home.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I can assure you that I'm much more objective on this subject than an israeli or a palestinian, simply because of the fact that I do not hold hatred for either of the group and I don't call that piece of land my home.

That's irrelevant.... "much more objective" is a subjective phrase itself as the degree of "much more" is basically your opinion.... also not holding hatred or not calling the area your home is not automatic "objectivity"

[leo]

You were brought up to believe that everyone hates you and persecutes you because you are part of the chosen race and better than the rest.

Wtf that suppose to mean?

[nemafakei]

"That's irrelevant.... "much more objective" is a subjective phrase itself as the degree of "much more" is basically your opinion..."

Perhaps the precise degree of 'much more' is not entirely objective, but are you really declaring that there is no objective reason for those in the US to have less bias than most Israelis and Palaestinians?

Even if he has some inclination in the depths of his soul, are you saying that will tamper with his objectivity to no less a degree as having been brought up to fear the other side?

And why, exactly is his remoteness so irrelevant? You concede that many of us "will have feelings for one side or the other due to childhood or even adulthood propaganda and influences" - surely those whose lives are and have long been far more filled with such influences will be more liable to be biased?

And at the end of the day, subjectivity of opinion only matters when you're taking people on their opinions and subjective judgements. No matter someone's bias, valid arguments are valid arguments, and so long as you are prepared to evaluate the argument for its own merit. As soon as someone starts saying "X is a very honest and competent person, but Y is thoroughly untrustworthy", try to ignore their judgement (as far as forming your own goes) and ask only for their evidence and reasoning. They may have none, they may have very good grounds (even if they are biased).

Please let's not get at each other for being 'biased', even if our opinions differ. Getting at each other for bad logic is far more constructive.

[GUNWOUNDS]

And at the end of the day, subjectivity of opinion only matters when you're taking people on their opinions and subjective judgements. No matter someone's bias, valid arguments are valid arguments, ...........Please let's not get at each other for being 'biased', even if our opinions differ. Getting at each other for bad logic is far more constructive.

Yes i agree... Shiroko and Leo are being unfairly dismissed.

[VigilVirus]

A deep sea diver might hate the shark that bit him much more than a marine biologist who studies their ecological role.

[ken124578]

What gunwounds is trying to say is that Leo and Shiroko know more than you do about what is happening in israel.

Yeah...you're an israeli. You can't possibly view this question objectively.

To clear out the "biase" you should listen to both sides of the story instead of just ignoring the story of one side.

[nemafakei]

Bias and experience are, of course, two different things.

Shiroko, who I know has been (/is?) in the IDF, will clearly know more about the sorts of orders Israeli soldiers received - by his company, at least. However, media differences might cause him to see less of or be informed differently about what more independant journalists would object to on Israel's part.

I'm not saying the levels of information are necessarily equal. That depends greatly on the individual.

None of the above is bias, but a matter of information. And it all depends on what question you ask the deep sea diver and the marine biologist.

[Shiroko]

Ah, this sucks....

Either you a subjective israeli/palestinian, or well... you simply don't care as much as one of them to know all the facts. In fact if we're looking  for the most unbiased opinion on the middle east we'll need to consult only middle-eastern sociologists. And I bet even those have a bias to onw of the sides that they favor.

There's no such thing as truly objective, especially when it comes to journalism so do what I do... look for everything on Google news and read it from different sites with differents views, the truth hides somewhere in the middle.

-Shiroko

[TMA_1]

I just personally think that there is way too much bias when it comes to this issue.

I was listening to NPR yesterday. They had the Israeli Foriegn Minister, and a representative of Hamas on the show. The reporter grilled the foriegn minister on issues like the roadblocks and the hinderance of a process to create peace in the lands. Right after this though when he talked to the representative of Hamas, the reporter was saying that Hamas, now that it has some new leadership, and that the attacks have slowed down a bit, that maybe there will be a new attempt at some sort of peace process. While talking to this representative though, he was saying stuff about how the palistinians who are dying for their cause believe they are martyrs, and it seemed that the reporter was almost glorifying the cause of the palistinians. As if they are only fighting ignorantly the best way they know how with injustices.

About 20 minutes later they were talking about the moving of the settlements in the Gaza Strip, and teh West Bank. This other reporter was talking about how hard it is for the settlers, and how the move is really affecting the morale of many Israeli's. Now I am not saying that these settlers are not suffering, and that it is going to be extremely hard for them. In fact I agree that these settlers have an inherent right to stay where they live. But the thing is, this reporter for NPR was basically castegating the Israeli government, and putting the government in a bad light for forcing the people in the settlements to move, and that it is creating a destabilization in the land.

They never once mentioned why this is happening though, and that this is going to help the peace process. It just seems to me that the western world in general is just biased. It seems to me that many western governemnts dont think israel can do anything right. At one moment people will complain that israel is hindering the peace process. And at another moment they are saying that the israeli government is too insensitive to it's own people, and that they are putting the peace process over the happiness of their own citizens.

It just bothers me. I dont see why israel is harrassed like it is. If any other nation had the same problems that israel has, it would be treated completely differently in my mind. There is some sort of stigma against israel, and it is so hidden, and so elusive at times that you cant really put a finger on it. I mean many times there is outright anger against the state of israel, but there are people on both sides of the political spectrum that have a problem with israel. It is just strange to me.

[VigilVirus]

How is it that you think those settlers have a right to stay on the land that does not belong to Israel?

[leo]

You were born in Russia if I remember correctly, yet you live in the USA...

[Dante]

He doesn't seem to claim it as an ancestral birthright, though.

[leo]

He doesn't seem to claim it as an ancestral birthright, though.

Doesn

[ordos45]

Suicide bombing rocks Tel Aviv nightclub.  At least 50 people injured, some fatalities.  Hopefully it won't effect the peace process; perhaps Sharon, instead of retaliating, will allow Abbas to hunt down those responsible?

leo you've brought up a point that's often overlooked, the amount of Palestinians with Israeli citizenship...I so rarely hear about it, could you expound upon it?

[Dante]

Doesn

[VigilVirus]

You were born in Russia if I remember correctly, yet you live in the USA...

I immigrated here...but I'm not setting up my own government. I'm not even a citizen. Your logic is bordering on idiotic. And furthermore, I think that the majority of the world does not recognize Israeli right to the land. The majority of western governments do certainly.

[Shiroko]

Just because a house belonged to my grandfather does not mean that it should automatically belong to me, should I wish it.

What if you were forced by an invading force to leave this house? Would that change the subject?

And furthermore, I think that the majority of the world does not recognize Israeli right to the land.

I don't think this is the case, but people with your opinions are often as antisemi as you. Obviously since pearls of wisdom like: "You were brought up to believe that everyone hates you and persecutes you because you are part of the chosen race and better than the rest" are either pure ignorance or someone has been reading the zionist protocols too many times.

-Shiroko

[leo]

Can you prove it?

Stop being childish. If you want a proof then ask any Palestinian if he would have agreed, I'm quite sure what the answer is gonna be.