Bomb Makers have to eat too.

[GUNWOUNDS]

This is a bit old .. but i remember watching some reporters interviewing people who worked in an american explosives factory..... the people were quoted as saying

"Yea.. when i saw the bombs going off in baghdad during the first assault i knew we had done our jobs properly and it made me proud."

I guess bomb makers have to support their families too.

[Anathema]

Regardless of wether Iraq was justified, the fact that a lot of people work in the arms industry makes it right to build bombs?

Somebody once said "it's impossible to prepare for war and at the same time try to avoid it". I think it was Einstein but I'm not sure. And he was right- in 1938 Hitler had supposedly rebuilt the German nation, most people were now employed and things were going all dandy. However this was because Hitler had created a huge army, and much of the industry revolved around building bombs, tanks and guns. This works fine for a while, but you can't keep storing bombs in warehouses indefinitely, at some point you'll have to use them to make sure there will still be a demand for bombs, so that the industry can keep running. Hitler had turned Germany into a war machine, and he needed to go to war to keep it running.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Regardless of wether Iraq was justified, the fact that a lot of people work in the arms industry makes it right to build bombs?

Somebody once said "it's impossible to prepare for war and at the same time try to avoid it". I think it was Einstein but I'm not sure. And he was right- in 1938 Hitler had supposedly rebuilt the German nation, most people were now employed and things were going all dandy. However this was because Hitler had created a huge army, and much of the industry revolved around building bombs, tanks and guns. This works fine for a while, but you can't keep storing bombs in warehouses indefinitely, at some point you'll have to use them to make sure there will still be a demand for bombs, so that the industry can keep running. Hitler had turned Germany into a war machine, and he needed to go to war to keep it running.

or he could have trained indefinately.  Training uses up ammo and bombs.

[Dante]

And land. Sooner or later any training ground becomes a massivbe crater. Besides, training indefinately would decrease the need for ammunition in the same way that not having a war would decrease the need for ammunition.

Furthermore, since when is it a good thing to have massive stockpiles of weapons? I thought that was one of the, heh, 'reasons' behind the invasion of Iraq?

And finally, people are not limited to one career. When demand for a job decreases, people just have to go elsewhere. Saying that bombs should be made just to keep bomb-makers in business is like saying that nuclear weapons should be made just to keep nuclear scientists in business, and the various dictators who buy them. I imagine there was a similar outcry by executioners when Britain, for all intents and purposes, abolished the death penalty. Or from slave owners when slavery was abolished.

[GUNWOUNDS]

And land. Sooner or later any training ground becomes a massivbe crater. Besides, training indefinately would decrease the need for ammunition in the same way that not having a war would decrease the need for ammunition.

Furthermore, since when is it a good thing to have massive stockpiles of weapons? I thought that was one of the, heh, 'reasons' behind the invasion of Iraq?

And finally, people are not limited to one career. When demand for a job decreases, people just have to go elsewhere. Saying that bombs should be made just to keep bomb-makers in business is like saying that nuclear weapons should be made just to keep nuclear scientists in business, and the various dictators who buy them. I imagine there was a similar outcry by executioners when Britain, for all intents and purposes, abolished the death penalty. Or from slave owners when slavery was abolished.

1.) Craters can be filled.  Dirt can be bulldozed or purchased (more economy support)

2.)  Its good to have stockpiles of weapons for potential large scale operations.

3.)  The reasons for the iraqi war was not just "weapons"  it was "MWD's" which are something different.  "Conventional weapons are entirely ok.

And furthermore...  a nuclear scientist can teach or work in the power industry... not many other people are so lucky to have credentials that transfer to different fields.

[Dude_Doc]

Hitler had turned Germany into a war machine, and he needed to go to war to keep it running.

It's even more than that. Hitler never meant to end the war. Hitler's war would go on forever, or until his "reich" collapsed. Without war, without an enemy there wouldn't be any need for weapons or bombs at all, thus, there would arise questions about the fascist system they lived in.

Fascism can't exist without enemies.

[nemafakei]

Ah, but you also need war to justify your huge military subsidies to your electorate so that you can remain in power and keep up the subsidies.

Which means you need to cultivate formidable menaces by arming them years in advance.

Which means you have to build the weapons to sell them.

[Marcel71]

Qoute Gunwounds: The reasons for the iraqi war was not just "weapons"  it was "MWD's" which are something different.

To bad they did not find ANY MWD's  ::).....

So that reason you can basically scrap from your list  ;D

[Dante]

1.) Craters can be filled.  Dirt can be bulldozed or purchased (more economy support)

Not indefinately.

2.)  Its good to have stockpiles of weapons for potential large scale operations.

My point exactly. There should be no large scale operations, and thus no need of stockpiles.

3.)  The reasons for the iraqi war was not just "weapons"  it was "MWD's" which are something different.  "Conventional weapons are entirely ok.

Oh, fine. MWDs. And I suppose Saddam having non-chemical warheds capable of reaching Cyprus within 45 minutes would have been entirely ok as well?

And furthermore...  a nuclear scientist can teach or work in the power industry... not many other people are so lucky to have credentials that transfer to different fields.

Bomb makers = engineers, firework makers, construction industry scientists...

[VigilVirus]

3.)

[Edric O]

Gunwounds, I hope you realize that building weapons just so you can blow them up is like digging a hole for the purpose of having something to fill up. Producing more bombs than you need is wasteful - just like digging a hole and filling it up again. If you want to give people jobs (which is a very good idea, by the way), then give them jobs that actually produce something which is needed.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Gunwounds, I hope you realize that building weapons just so you can blow them up is like digging a hole for the purpose of having something to fill up. Producing more bombs than you need is wasteful - just like digging a hole and filling it up again. If you want to give people jobs (which is a very good idea, by the way), then give them jobs that actually produce something which is needed.

Bombs are needed..... needed for military operations overseas... and for training exercises.

[Dante]

Digging hole and then filling it = pointless exercise.

Making bombs = training = war = pointless exercise.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Digging hole and then filling it = pointless exercise.

Making bombs = training = war = pointless exercise.

War has a point.  It is to manifest your Will in the form of force. So that it may be expressed.  Nothing could have more "point" than that.

[Dante]

That's why we have diplomacy. Negotiation. Ability to speak to each other rather than bash each other until one of us wins.

Unless of course you don't want to have made any progress since the stone age, that is.

[GUNWOUNDS]

That's why we have diplomacy. Negotiation. Ability to speak to each other rather than bash each other until one of us wins.

Unless of course you don't want to have made any progress since the stone age, that is.

Most famous empires and emperor/leaders used force and not negotiation.  Might makes Right is definately not limited to the Stone Age.  I believe it manifested itself recently in Iraq.

[GUNWOUNDS]

That's why we have diplomacy. Negotiation. Ability to speak to each other rather than bash each other until one of us wins.

Unless of course you don't want to have made any progress since the stone age, that is.

Also Negotiation and Diplomacy is not the same as War.

[Dante]

If you believe that might made right in Iraq then there is definately no hope for you.

Furthermore, just because something has been done before does not make it sensible. The habit of humans to use force where negotiation would serve appears to be a bad trait that we have not yet rid ourselves of.

And compromise is a good thing! It shows maturity, ability to debate, ability to make sacrafices instead of acting like a child and going into a tantrum if you don't get your way. Good compromise leaves everyone happy, or at least satisfied. War just kills people.

[GUNWOUNDS]

If you believe that might made right in Iraq then there is definately no hope for you.

Furthermore, just because something has been done before does not make it sensible. The habit of humans to use force where negotiation would serve appears to be a bad trait that we have not yet rid ourselves of.

And compromise is a good thing! It shows maturity, ability to debate, ability to make sacrafices instead of acting like a child and going into a tantrum if you don't get your way. Good compromise leaves everyone happy, or at least satisfied. War just kills people.

No one is ever happy with compromises... they are left feeling bitter about what they had to give up. Its human nature.  And War doesnt just kill people.. it kills people while enforcing a "Will"... you are confusing random acts of violence with organized warfare.

[GUNWOUNDS]

If you believe that might made right in Iraq then there is definately no hope for you.

I am merely stating a fact.... if you went to a US federal state prison.... the prison inmates would use their might to make you submit to their Will (make you their sex toy).The prison is their world and what they enforce within it is "Right"

[Dante]

You're saying that this is somehow justified? That the stronger are automatically right because they are stronger?

[Megashrap]

Being a bomb maker is a totally legit job.

  Not only legit but a very lucrative, and high in demand career field.  Take a gander at one of many large corp. in my area, and just some of the requirements.

http://careers.northropgrumman.com/ExternalHorizonsWeb/getJobPostDetail.do?sequenceNumber=58873

Far cry from what many may think that bomb makers are somehow the equivelant of skinheads making pipe bombs in thier garage.

[Dante]

Who implied that?

[GUNWOUNDS]

You're saying that this is somehow justified? That the stronger are automatically right because they are stronger?

The stronger lion kills the weaker lion.... no matter how entitled he was to his land and pride of females... he is dead.... so the Stronger lion by default becomes "Right".

[Dante]

What IS can very well be what's WRONG. The nazis overthrew several political rivals to get to the fore of German politics (stronger lion killing the weaker), was that RIGHT, in your terms?

The stronger can dictate what IS, but that does not necessarily mean they are correct. And what's more, having what IS decided upon by negotiation would be infinately preferable to having it forced on a population by the strong.

(On a side note, don't call me out for using phrases like 'good' and 'right' here. I use them because they are convenient, because I am not arguing on my own terms, and because the synonyms are just annoying. Any phrases such as 'how can you prove this is wrong?' or 'what's so bad about that?' Will be ignored. This is not the place for them).