Arafat is dying, and all the world can do is watch.

[Kiyouta]

I realise that there is another topic already on this subject, but I didn't want to talk about the end of Arafat and what is next as such.

Clearly Arafat is really the only person alive that the Palestinian people listen to. I just get a sick feeling thinking about what would happen if he did die. For if he did, we will have ultimately failed. Failed to achieve peace in the middle east after 40 years of conflict. We had the chances and we blew it. I feel that when Israel locked Arafat in his Ramalah prison and rejected him as a means of negotiation, we were witnessing the beginning of the end of the peace process.

I don't see how Bush and Blair are ever going to re-initiate talks between Israel and the Palestinians now that the figurehead for the so-called Palestinian state is dying.

What I don't understand is why no-one feels a sense of urgency over this matter. Arafat is on his death bed. Why can't Bush and Ariel Sharon see this, and fly to France immediately to see him, a last chance to talk before its too late. I know many of you will have different opinions of Arafat at just how important he has been to the peace process, but don't you agree that he is the only one, the only one that the Palestinian people will listen to. In my opinion, if he dies, the peace process dies with him.

[Andrew]

The only people that can create peace in middle east is the people living there. It doesn't matter what any political figures say or do.

[Acriku]

You don't think it would help the peace process if the people causing the war on the Palestinian side find out that their leader wants peace with Israel? Surely some of them are loyal to their leader, not their hatred for Israelians.

[Andrew]

Well Arafat was living there, I am talking about Bush and the other politicians who do not live there.

[ordos45]

Arafat, in my opinion, has been one of the greatest obstacles to the peace process.

[Acriku]

Ok Andrew, I misunderstood you, sorry. Ordos, no matter how much of an obstacle Arafat was to the peace process, he still maintains the possibility of improving it and I think him being on his deathbed may help him decide to talk about peace. Isn't this what Crusher is talking about?

[ordos45]

It's a possibility, but doubtful.  We can at least hope his deathbed wish isn't for every Palestinian to take up arms against Israel.

[Dude_Doc]

Do any of the terrorists even listen to Arafat? I think they use him more as an object rather than some kind of leader, only bringing forth his smile hand shaking to the press, while portraying the Israelis as angry and foul monsters...

[Shiroko]

Hate to ruin it for you, but Arafat is/was an obstacle for peace. He's unreliable and suffers from many illusions of your usual dictator. I doubt too much of a war will break when he dies, there's a more than great chance the palestinians will simply decide on a new leader (Abu-Alah, Abu-Mazen) and actually go towards peace.

Arafat has about $200,000,000. He's the 10th richest leader worldwide, while he did not have the money before, and the palestinian authority doesn't have any oil. It's all tax and donations money. Can you honestly believe the palestinians will miss him that much?

With my talks with some palestinians quite a lot of them never cared much from him, and the rest where willing to forgive him because of his achievements.

-Shiroko

[ordos45]

In our latest coverage here in the USA I've noticed we've quit calling it the Palestinian Authority, it's back to the PLO.  Arafat is/was corrupt, skimming tax and charity monies, and reselling donated cement from Egypt to Israel to build the Gaza wall. 

[Mozared]

I think it should simply stay this way, exept for a few things:

-Jews in Gaza piece must move

-The people over there mustn't be so damn stupid to "follow prophets", but believe in THEIRSELVES

-For every war victim, kill 1 orthodox jew and 1 orthodox islam (forgot right word for it).

I don't really mean that last thing litterally:P, but in time it'l solve the problem, for the orthodox people there are the problem makers.

If you'd force me to pick sides i'd go for The islam-people (stupid word:P), because they're pretty much right. they've already moved for the jewish which they shouldn't even have done, IMO, and then the jewish start complaining about wanting more about the land:-. now thats screwed. besides, the islam-people own the county now, dot. I mean, if we'd go back when the jewish owned it, and further back in time then it would be f*cked; i mean, if we go look into history to divide lands, then holland should own half america together with spain, portugal and england, the balcan lands should be the byzantium empire, etc. how would the americans react if we with spain, portugal and england go there and say "we owned this land earlier, so now you gotta bug off cause we're coming to claim it"? and what would the balcan folks say if somebody comes and say "right, now all these lands are 1 land and it's called byzantium, and i'm the leader"? right, you can see that won't work.

To get back on Arafat: I think you are both right; there are indeed ofcourse people who follow him, and if he says he wants peace then those people will follow him. problem is,

1) that isn't the majority of people

2) they need to make peace themselves, else we'll get civil wars

3) Arafat doesn't want peace, he's proven that.

So thats actually the big deal I think.

Conclusion: IMO the country is better off without Arafat, though if you could get him to make peace he would be valuable; then again, as soon as a new leader comes he'll get the same position as Arafat in that way.

Mozared

[Kiyouta]

Can you honestly believe the palestinians will miss him that much?

With my talks with some palestinians quite a lot of them never cared much from him, and the rest where willing to forgive him because of his achievements.

-Shiroko

Something which I did notice when seeing the news clips of people in Palestine praying for the health of Arafat was the fact that there were very few men and youths there, but overwelming numbers of mothers and younger children. I watched a programme a while back on the state of the West Bank (a UK documentary, cut short by the tragic death of their producer, shot by an Israeli soldier whilst filming in the West Bank), and what was clear from the Palestinian people being interviewed, was how the mothers were truely the only people actively desperately wanting the fighting to end. It is clear to see why. They have to watch their own flesh and blood signing up to Hamas to ultimatly die.

There was a particualar family, where a young boy was explaining how he wanted to join Hamas and fight the Israelis. His older brother had recently been 'martyred', and he obviously wanted to revenge his death. In the background, his mother was in tears. She tells him, "But you will be killed!". But the young boy pays no attention, and after a delay of 5 seconds, responds with: "God is great."

Taking this in mind, I see how women in Palestine see Arafat as really the only chance for peace they have. When they see their own children being prised away from them by the militas, and they hear Arafat's words of condemnation and his 'love for the palestinian people'; for them, he is there only hope. They have known him 40 years and without him I can see that now, for them at least, hope must seem a very distant concept.

So maybe we as on lookers may not consider Arafat to be a significant or useful individual in the struggle for peace, for some people, he is the only one. Perhaps this is merely symbolic of how dillusional Arafat's image has become, to those who have nothing but distant hope.

[Shiroko]

I think it should simply stay this way, exept for a few things:

-Jews in Gaza piece must move

-The people over there mustn't be so damn stupid to "follow prophets", but believe in THEIRSELVES

-For every war victim, kill 1 orthodox jew and 1 orthodox islam (forgot right word for it).

I don't really mean that last thing litterally:P, but in time it'l solve the problem, for the orthodox people there are the problem makers.

If you'd force me to pick sides i'd go for The islam-people (stupid word:P), because they're pretty much right. they've already moved for the jewish which they shouldn't even have done, IMO, and then the jewish start complaining about wanting more about the land:-. now thats screwed. besides, the islam-people own the county now, dot. I mean, if we'd go back when the jewish owned it, and further back in time then it would be f*cked; i mean, if we go look into history to divide lands, then holland should own half america together with spain, portugal and england, the balcan lands should be the byzantium empire, etc. how would the americans react if we with spain, portugal and england go there and say "we owned this land earlier, so now you gotta bug off cause we're coming to claim it"? and what would the balcan folks say if somebody comes and say "right, now all these lands are 1 land and it's called byzantium, and i'm the leader"? right, you can see that won't work.

To get back on Arafat: I think you are both right; there are indeed ofcourse people who follow him, and if he says he wants peace then those people will follow him. problem is,

1) that isn't the majority of people

2) they need to make peace themselves, else we'll get civil wars

3) Arafat doesn't want peace, he's proven that.

So thats actually the big deal I think.

Conclusion: IMO the country is better off without Arafat, though if you could get him to make peace he would be valuable; then again, as soon as a new leader comes he'll get the same position as Arafat in that way.

Mozared

You have too much wrong facts an misunderstanding of the regions history. I don't even have the will to correct it.

They're not Jewish orthodox in the Gaza strip. Israel for the Jews, is not Europe's silly colonies, it's a bit more important for my people, and not from a religious aspect. Or should we stay in Europe where Jews are still getting excellent treatment from Europian people. There's no prophets actually walking around here with people believing in them. It's not like the palestinians had a mass exodus in 48. And it's not like Israel was looking for fights against the poor arab countries in the next 50 years in order to get more land.

I highly suggest you read some history of the region from 1880 to 2004 and see  that it is much more complicated then it would seem.

-Shiroko

[leo]

I think it should simply stay this way, exept for a few things:

-Jews in Gaza piece must move

-The people over there mustn't be so damn stupid to "follow prophets", but believe in THEIRSELVES

-For every war victim, kill 1 orthodox jew and 1 orthodox islam (forgot right word for it).

I don't really mean that last thing litterally:P, but in time it'l solve the problem, for the orthodox people there are the problem makers.

If you'd force me to pick sides i'd go for The islam-people (stupid word:P), because they're pretty much right. they've already moved for the jewish which they shouldn't even have done, IMO, and then the jewish start complaining about wanting more about the land:-. now thats screwed. besides, the islam-people own the county now, dot. I mean, if we'd go back when the jewish owned it, and further back in time then it would be f*cked; i mean, if we go look into history to divide lands, then holland should own half america together with spain, portugal and england, the balcan lands should be the byzantium empire, etc. how would the americans react if we with spain, portugal and england go there and say "we owned this land earlier, so now you gotta bug off cause we're coming to claim it"? and what would the balcan folks say if somebody comes and say "right, now all these lands are 1 land and it's called byzantium, and i'm the leader"? right, you can see that won't work.

To get back on Arafat: I think you are both right; there are indeed ofcourse people who follow him, and if he says he wants peace then those people will follow him. problem is,

1) that isn't the majority of people

2) they need to make peace themselves, else we'll get civil wars

3) Arafat doesn't want peace, he's proven that.

So thats actually the big deal I think.

Conclusion: IMO the country is better off without Arafat, though if you could get him to make peace he would be valuable; then again, as soon as a new leader comes he'll get the same position as Arafat in that way.

Mozared

Woohoo gotta love History. lol man you have no idea how much I laughed reading your post.

[Dude_Doc]

-The people over there mustn't be so damn stupid to "follow prophets", but believe in THEIRSELVES

Jewish people don't believe in a coming prophet, only Christians do.

If you'd force me to pick sides i'd go for The islam-people (stupid word:P),

They are also known as Palestinians.

I mean, if we'd go back when the jewish owned it, and further back in time then it would be f*cked; i mean, if we go look into history to divide lands, then holland should own half america together with spain, portugal and england, the balcan lands should be the byzantium empire, etc.

It isn't that simple. Israel is the only place in the world where the Jews have their history.

how would the americans react if we with spain, portugal and england go there and say "we owned this land earlier, so now you gotta bug off cause we're coming to claim it"? and what would the balcan folks say if somebody comes and say "right, now all these lands are 1 land and it's called byzantium, and i'm the leader"? right, you can see that won't work.

And what was before Spain, England and America? Before the so called Byzantium empire? Other nations. And before that? More other nations. In the end, there were no nations at all. To me, nations are in people's head, a figment of our imagination. We are all humans, and we live on this planet. That's why I think we should work together, not against each other. But that's another topic. 

You should read these links about the conflict:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

[Kiyouta]

Please stop making fun of Mozared's post and get back on topic. :-

[leo]

Please stop making fun of Mozared's post and get back on topic. :-

I wish I could but this one got me:

...and then the jewish start complaining about wanting more about the land:-.

Do we also bomb Palestinian Busses or maybe snipe babies from roofs?

[GUNWOUNDS]

Arafat is now in a coma... so basically he is dead and wont be negotiating any peace deals ... so lets drop that idea and discuss what the futures holds now.

[Mozared]

May I react I didn't see much wrong with my post?

[Dude_Doc]

You might say "then there isn't peace", but if palestinans wont attack jews anymore and vice versa that is peace. or at least neutrality.

It isn't that simple. The Palestinians blow themselves up in a populated area, the Israelis counter with hunting down the people behind the bombing. This usually, according to most news agencies, result in death for innocent people that might "be in the way". The Palestinians want revenge, and so they blow another bomb, and the Israelis counter again. And so it goes on and on.

It doesn't matter shit if the palestines believe in upcoming propet or whatever, it's about the fact they should believe in theirselves.

How can they believe in anything but revenge when they are born in a conflict that has been going on for half a century?

[Shiroko]

...when i say "thats when the shit hits the fan"? about "there are no fans in israel" (actually like that answer  :P)...

Actually we have fans, and having shit hitting them here is a national sport.

I'd add a picture, but you might find it offensive so here's a link:

http://www.sydes.net/jokes/pictures/s/shit_hits_the_fan.jpg

Now seriously, the problem about "pausing" the violance is that there are simply palestinians against it, and that they're are currently not controled by their authorities. The palestinians avoid fighting their fanatics (As do we probably, but our fanatics are much less troublesome compared to the palestinians)

-Shiroko

P.S.

I hope Crusher won't get annoyed about jokes in the middle of this thread, oh well. Sorry.

[Dude_Doc]

It seems like Arafat has passed away.

[ordos45]

link?

[Dude_Doc]

Okay, now they are preparing his grave at least, according to CNN.

[Andrew]

It is normal to plan for a person's death when they know they will die in the future (short term, 0-2 years).

Ok, Arafat is now dead for sure.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/11/10/arafatobit041110.html

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/10/arafat.obit/index.html