Have you people completely lost your minds?

[loom]

For the record, I've been playing games since 1988, Dune II is one of the best games I've ever played,

and I'm an hard-core Dune-universe fan.

Emperor: Battle For Dune... S U C K S

Although I'm playing it like a mad man, it's only because it's related to Dune.

The gameplay is no better than it was with Dune2000, and I can't understand why

you people, Dune people, are raving mad happy with this game, are you guys blind and def?

First off, the 3D, sure, it looks GREAT, but is it of any use to you? In my opinion all it

really does is slowing down the game bigtime. The music is great, the cutscenes are good, all is

good except the gameplay and how you control it. The AI controlling the opponent is good, but the AI

that helps YOU controlling YOUR game SUCKS. Like moving many units is a pain in the ass, your units don't

fight back while you move them, you can't put them in "defensive / offensive" mode, your units don't do

squat while a long-range attacker is blasting them to smitherines, I could go on and on with these

little things, but I want to open up a discussion about this, see what you guys have to say...

I was really, really, REALLY excited about this game, everyone were talking about how 'revolutionary' and

GREAT this game was going to be, and when I played it, I was deeply and utterly disappointed. This game is exactly

like Dune2000 but in 3D. (Dune2000 wasn't all that great either)

AOE, Starcraft, Homeworld, these are games with intuitive controls & gameplay.

I wish, I wish they had just copied one of these games and replaced all the elements with Dune elements.

[Guest Albatross]

Oh, the gameplay is good. The units are good. The entire game setup is good.

It's the interface that's a P.O.S....

There's no Stand Ground command (closest thing is Guarding a structure).

There's no Move-and-Attack command (come on, we had this back in the Warcraft days!).

The computer AI makes great choices when it's attacking your units. YOUR unit AI, however, makes piss-poor decisions when it comes to attacking enemy units.

(example: I move my Tron Tanks toward a group of enemies. They all, naturally, start firing on the resistant troops instead of the non-resistant vehicles EVEN THOUGH THE VEHICLES ARE CLOSER THAN THE TROOPS).

There's no NORMAL patrol command. And the waypoints, which worked well in RA2, seemed to have undergone some... changes.... and not for the better.

There's no corrective pathfinding. Sure, if you tell a group of guys to move, they try to sort themselves out. But if one gets in the way of another, both will sit there on their asses until you manuaully seperate them. BAD.

Agreed, Dune 2 was awesome. Dune2 is the ancestor and progenitor of the ENTIRE RTS GENRE. It was the first, the great grand-daddy. What Wolfenstein did for FPS, Dune 2 did for RTS. I miss it dearly. Yet, while many mistakes have been fixed over the ages, the interface honestly isn't that much better, considering how many YEARS have past. And this is by the SAME COMPANY that made both games. Both Westwood and Blizzard have done a remarkable job of recycling the same damn game over and over into new forms. But, gotta give credit, while Westwood generally does a better (and cooler) job on the entire game setup, Blizzard owns them when it comes to interface (That and FMV are pretty much what Blizzard is best at... :P ). Hell, the best interface for unit control harkens back to Dark Reign and Total Annihilation (the first one, not the abomination known as Kingdoms), but Blizzard at least made it easy. If Westwood could only make a decent interface (aka ditch that sidebar crap, give us hotkeys like every other game!, fix unit controls), then this game would have been majorly impressive.

Don't get me wrong, I still love it, but it's annoying when the interface is the main drawback to a game, especially one with so much potential.

[Guest Daniel+RTS+Master]

I never taught it was revoultinary (Sp?), Compare Emperor To a new RTS coming out september called Empire Earth, People will see that Emperor is low on the scale of revoultinary.

But I don't think It's that bad I just think that many people here have overhyped it.

[peseverance]

HELL get Homeworld

:)

And yes Westwood needs some new blood circulating... ATM I'm leaning that the best RTS maker is Relic, with Blizzard and Westwood somewhat behind Relic

[Edric O]

This is the Garden of Kadesh. Dune fans are asked to step out of this Holy Thread. Taiidan imperialists may stay.

:) :) :)

Sure, Relic makes good RTS games (*ahem*, ONE game), but how many people play them? How many people play Homeworld? Very few.

I see some 3D haters in here. 3D is the future for RTS. 2D games are dying. GET THAT INTO YOUR HEADS! There is no going back to the old 2D games. I'm not a 3D supporter, quite the contrary, I hate having to upgrade my PC. But Westwood is THE LAST company to switch to 3D. The public wants 3D, so they get it...

I haven't played Emperor yet, but all the fans love it and gaming magazines praise it. You say it's not good? WELL WHO MADE YOU TOP AUTHORITY IN RTS GAMING???? Maybe you don't like it, but that doesn't give you the right to say WE lost our minds because we play it!!! YOU are the one with the strange ideas, not us!

[Guest Albatross]

LOL. Relic makes "ahem, ONE game"... wow... that's interesting, considering the same can be said of Blizzard and Westwood. Same game, different forms. ;) I and plenty of my friends still play and love the game, despite its (few) drawbacks. I DO happen to be a supporter of 3d games. I loved TA, back in the day, even though it was only 'halfway' 3D. I love Homeworld, and I love Emperor despite its drawbacks. That's not to say I don't like 3d, but it's gotten too old and stale. Hell, Westwood has made Dune 2, C&C, C&C 2, RA, RA2 (all four of which have one or more expansions), and Dune 2k. You see how many times they've used the same basic game engine, updated over time? Hell, even ID made only 2 variations of their FPS engine (Doom, Doom 2) before making something new (Quake).

"WELL WHO MADE YOU TOP AUTHORITY IN RTS GAMING"

I could ask you the same thing. Since that question can be applied on both sides, then it doesn't really matter, does it? It doesn't affect the outcome one way or the other since you can't give a better answer than anyone else.

"doesn't give you the right to say WE lost our minds because we play it"

Last time I checked, I was in the USA. I don't know about him, but in OUR country, we have this little thing called "Free Speach", protected by the First Amendment. Now, you might live in some other nation, but HERE we can say whatever we damn well please. Even if it's so stupid as to say people have lost their minds. I agree with your opinion on this part, Edric, but I don't agree with you bashing him the way he bashed you. Now you're just on the same level he is.

"but all the fans love it "

Not ALL the fans, else this guy wouldn't have spoken up. Most people who aren't fans who try something and don't like it will return it and spend their cash elsewhere, not look up boards online to bitch on.

All the fans love it, but for different reasons. Most adore the 3d while enjoy getting 'more of the same'. Some of us don't, since 'more of the same' is practically identical to what we were getting seven years ago. Yay.

"and gaming magazines praise it."

Economics, dear boy. They pay them to put a review of their game in to sell more copies... thus, in most cases, they try and point out the best of things while glossing over the 'less than good' aspects. Also, you have to compare it to what's goin on at the time. Since there ARE no really new innovations in these games nowadays, they are impressed by getting what they have because there is nothing else better TO get. Not the best of situations, but they have to make do where they can.

Anyway, like I said, I love the game. But there are a few minor issues that really turn out to be not-so-minor. They've done an awesome job with the units, balance, etc, but skipped over one of the most basic and important aspects of the game... HOW you play it. They could have units and maps the likes we've never seen before, but if the interface is lacking (or difficult), no one's really gonna be able to play it, let alone enjoy it. The game is playable, but in no way easy to use or as varied in its controls as other games (AoE2, Starcraft, TA, Homeworld, Dark Reign, etc).

[Guest Albatross]

Damn, error fix...

"That's not to say I don't like 3d"

SHOULD SAY:

"That's not to say I don't like 2d"

Maybe I should register so I can actually EDIT my posts. ;)

[peseverance]

Look here

Relic might have ONE game (That very sad from my point of view) but that one game is totally different!!! its new! (I think) and of course Sigma looks extremely brilliant (looks like B&W tho).

I'm sad to say that not many people play Homeworld :(

But then 3D RTS IS the future of ALL games.... tell me one that isn't (not counting card games and the other weird crap like that ok)

I say Westwood is best for one thing Sound/Music and their movies

[peseverance]

BTW an instance of smart A.I. (a rare thing)

I moved 10 Minotaurus in a tight spot... 3 different ways for 1 Minotaurus to move through that area... the used all 3 ways... ;)

[Edric O]

Don't get the impression that I don't like Homeworld. I like it a lot, but only the singleplayer. The campaign is brilliant, and the storyline really epic (unlike in Barking Dog's Crapaclysm... err, "Cataclysm" :D). But the multiplayer isn't much fun, sadly. :(

Whatever you say, you can't change the fact that Relic made only ONE game. There's a big difference between making games with a similar feeling and just making ONE game. ;)

You complain that WW doesn't innovate. Well, maybe they just don't have any ideas! I sure don't. Westwood has done MANY changes to its games over the years, and each game has a different gameplay. But they have a similar FEELING, that's all. How could WW change this feeling? I don't know, and I think they also don't know. Whatever WW does, fans will compare it to C&C and get a similar feeling. Hell, Westwood could have made Starcraft and the gamers would still get a C&C feeling!

[Guest HeavyFlea]

The 3d is great! If you don't like it set your view and leave it.

I don't use the 3d all the time but I use it to shift the view to what I think is the optimal viewing position for the strategy that I'm planning. Other 3d systems have there perks, 2d does aswell. But I find Emperors works well with Emperor.

Another thing, I think WW was trying to take the greatness of Dune 2 (not 2k, I never played it) mix it with the success of their latest and add a few new features. I think they pulled it off well. It's tuff to comply to all the spoiled babies out there saying do this and do that. I've heard comments like... It should have been more 'revolutionary' (over used crap term) and 'make it more like this game'. WW fans seem to want it more like Ra2, like they where expected Ra3 with this game. Then others must have to compare it with what they're comfortable with. Bullshit! Suck it up, Shut up and play the game how it was built. Certain things should be addressed in the patch, codeing problems, path finding etc. The normal 'bugs'. As for the game itself, it's Dune 2 taken to a new level. Very fun and addictive and the multiplayer QuickMatch is just awesome.

[Guest Childboy]

AOE, Starcraft, Homeworld, these are games with intuitive controls & gameplay.

Starcraft and intuitive controls+gameplay don't mix, moron. Yes a 12 unit control limit is very intuitive.. hmm..

Looks like the 9 unit control limit is more intuitive then Starcraft's according to what you are saying.

Have you people completely lost your minds?

No we have not, looks like you did. kiddy uh, i mean kiddi.

[Guest Daniel RTS Master]

Well, 3d is great, but I think RTS gaming needs something new with more scope (Empire Earth will be that, I think) but westwood keep going back to the same old thing and modifing it slighty. Also not all westwood games have map editors, which is coming more important in a RTS game. I don't have homeworld or starcraft but I have Age of Empires and I tell you the map editor puts more live into a game.

[cyclonus]

True, but they'll probably release it (map editor) as a free download (like FA2) or in the EB4D expansion. This game almost perfect, my only complaint is somewhat bad pathfinding at times.

[ordos45]

I hope they release a map editor. Imagine setting up your idea of a perfect battle. Or a veichle map or an infantry rock mostly map. Wouldn't a map editor be so cool?

[cyclonus]

yeah...

[Guest Flancer]

Give Emperor a break.. at least it didn't end up like Tiberium Sun... wayyy overhyped and very low on everything else (boring as hell I'd say.. and the music... really.. ughhhh).

Emperor is a good and fun RTS to me. Period. At least I didn't feel the gameplay is too repetitive and too easy (even on easiest levels..)... ok granted I'm not exactly a l33t RTS gamer..

Emperor looks like a sequel and feels like one.. can you say the same for all the other Dune RTS we've seen? Tiberium Sun (which definitely didnt' feel like a sequel at all..).. arg.. ok maybe I'm just too bitter over that one ;).

Revolutionary? hasn't been one in erm.. ages? except for that HomeWorld.. ;).

[Guest Azzichseb]

>First off, the 3D, sure, it looks GREAT, but is it of any use to you?

>In my opinion all it

>really does is slowing down the game bigtime.

Blame your machine, not the game :>

I'm running a mid-range machine, a Duron800 with 128Mb Ram and a Gforce 2mx, and it runs nice with highest details on - excepting that I run in 16 bit colour rather than 32. Most people are lying when they say they can tell the difference anyhow :)

>I could go on and on with these

>little things, but I want to open up a discussion about this, see what you guys have to say...

Many of the things your brought up are adressed in th 1.07 patch - especially the annoying "move or fight but not both at the same time" thing.

>AOE, Starcraft, Homeworld, these are games with intuitive controls & gameplay.

I don't know about Starcraft (was always a Total Annihilation man :>), but I concur with you re: Homeworld. Amazing game.

>I wish, I wish they had just copied one of these games and replaced all the elements with Dune elements.

There's nothing to stop you. All of these games are moddable :)

Azzichseb

[Guest Daniel RTS Master]

To The Answer The Question. Yes

[bob_fox]

Emperor is good and fun.

I actually think TA was the best strategy game. Westwood don't give you air to air combat and realistic radar systems. I could also never understand either why in their games only certain weapons could shoot at aircraft. In TA EVERYTHING could shoot at aircraft (some were just not GOOD against aircraft). Otherwise, WW's OKAY.

[fedaykin_jatin]

i actually would be scared if my units started running off to engage enemy targets by themselves..

i magine the potiental to lead off a few enemy units at a time n slowly deplete their def.. nope prefer it this way.

[cyclonus]

Yeah too bad TA is all but forgotten.

[casper]

I also think TA is the best RTS game ever. You had huge battles on all three of platforms(land sea air). The controls were great too, especially the patrol command. If anyone is still looking for a little TA action they can reply to me anytime. I still play it with friends of mine but they lack skill.

[fedaykin_jatin]

TA was good. especially with the expansions. love those amphibious mechs n skimmers....

[fedaykin_jatin]

i still got a copy of TA might install it.....if i have enough space.