Patriotism

ordos45 · June 25, 2004

I'd be curious to see whether you would keep your patriotic silence were a Democratic President dragging the nation into the gutter.

Give me Kerry, and you'll find quick criticism at his first major blunder. I'm a bipartisan critic. I'm encouraged by historical figures to question, thus I do.

Acriku · June 25, 2004

In addition there exists a checks and balances within the government.... which has built-in questioning and criticism.... And our leader is democratically elected. So who says he has no accountability?

He certainly has less accountability than the Senators and House of Representatives. They have 2 years. People's memory is long enough to make them accountable more than the president.

Also just what does criticism and questioning get you? 50% of the USA are democrats who absolutely loathe the man and criticize him till they are frothing at the mouth.... yet he does what he wants regardless of them.
Reality Check.

You don't like democrats eh?

Wolf · June 25, 2004

They certainly seem to get him all hot-and-bothered. Me, personally, I've always liked the Union-worker, blue-dog Democrat style.

GUNWOUNDS · June 25, 2004

You don't like democrats eh?

I dont view myself as republican or democrat ...

Acriku · June 25, 2004

Since when was political foolery not blind? That's what politics is, it's the glasswear people use to judge other people.

danielsh · June 25, 2004

I dont view myself as republican or democrat ...

Dante · June 25, 2004

And it's not just the liberals. I certainly loathe the man for a reason. Plural reasons even.

Atomic Mitten · June 25, 2004

To me, all polititions become polititions because they want to have the power to change things to what they believe should be done,in their country and others.

But do polititions listen to the people that elected them ? no they don't !

Everyone was against the war in Iraq in the UK,but it didn't stop Blair going ahead with it.There are more people living in poverty now due to paying for War's than should be necessary.I believe that charity begins at home,England for one should concentrate it's efforts on our own people's welfare rather than foreigners.If there is anything left over after this goal is achieved then O.K. they can help others in our name.

This might be cynical but that's what people really want,they don't want War,they want to live a peaceful and comfortable life,governed by Polititions that listen to their electorate.

Patriotism to me is loving the fairness of one's countries people,that's why I love being English,I have been around the world and have still to meet a fairer people in their innermost judgements.I am talking about ordinary everyday folk,not the Hierarchy.

If mankind could all start helping each other,not financially but in spirit,then the world would be a better place.Everyone can do it,it's really easy,if you see someone struggling to do something,help them ! don't think he'll manage,the results are quite amazing and very satisfying,this gets passed on,it really does.

Have you ever noticed driving along in your car,you let someone out into the main traffic flow,he is greatful,then usually he does the same and so on.

This is like a chain reaction,so if you understand the principle of what I'm trying to say,try it out.It really does work and it's got nothing to do with Religion,beliefs,Politics or Race etc.People are people,I try and treat others how I would expect to be treated by them,with respect.

The situation in Iraq is an extremely hard one to resolve,now we don't have a choice but to help them obtain their peace and democracy,if the troops are pulled out now,it will result in utter chaos,no doubt that other dictators will then take over and revert to it's former oppressive ways.

There are no simple answers to Polititions doing the right thing for it's people,if they listen to their people they might learn something.But then Power is known to corrupt most people,in one or more ways.

I for one would like to see my leader listen to what I have to say and take action on it,until this happens we are stuck with his decisions and policies,for the term on his or her office.

We should, I suppose be greatful that we are allowed to voice our disdain openly,that is maybe the biggest freedom we have in this world.

nemafakei · June 25, 2004

Gunwounds, democracy obligatory in a system does not in any way excuse an undemocratic approach where legal obligation ends.

What's the point of voting if people can't share their views to come to a balanced decision? Anyone who discourages people from questioning discourages them from free thought, thus restricting the effectiveness of their decision and the freedom to vote in the first place, and makes the democratic process that little bit more redundant.

A just leader encourages people to question him, to make sure he's going on the right path, to suggest alternatives he may have overlooked, to help him avoid mistakes. A good leader can answer those questions with his reasons, rather than avoid them with his rhetoric, or discourage them with his status.

Davidu · June 25, 2004

One should love and respect the country, the people, and the leaders only if they're doing a good job. Lately that didn't happend. It is important to have countries - even if they wage wars - because thus we have variety. Without variety we'll go into stagnation and then die.

Anyway, if the countries, the republics, the empires come and go, usually the people remain.

So, patriotism would mean respect and love for your people.

Dante · June 25, 2004

"Patriotism is a feeling of love and devotion to one's own homeland (patria, the land of one's fathers). This article surveys the concept of patriotism from the viewpoints of history, politics, ethics, and biology."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism

Davidu · June 25, 2004

LOL, take a look at this:

http://www.level.ro/display_poza.php?poza=1087986185-0B.CLOTHING.JPG&sti_id=

Dante · June 25, 2004

That's brilliant.

HasimirFenring · June 25, 2004

Democrats blindly hate bush .... as emprworm coined the phrase "Bush-haters"
thats the main thing that irritates me about democrats .... is that they have an irrational hate for Bush.

First of all, that hatred of bush is hardly blind.

I assure you, a comparable number of republicans hated Clinton with the same fervor that liberals now hate bush.

danielsh · June 25, 2004

(Bear in mind the fact that this is from 1991.)

ordos45 · June 26, 2004

Fury over the way the nation is being run is legitimate, and as much a characteristic of the Left when the Right dominates as of the Right when the Left dominates.

Wolf · June 26, 2004

How is defying the UN an impeachable act? Bush is president of the US, not the UN.

danielsh · June 26, 2004

The Constitution only requires the act to be a "high crime" or "misdemeanor," so it all depends on whom you're asking.

What is an impeachable act is using $700 million to prepare for a war Congress hasn't approved when the money was budgeted for other purposes. The Constitution is pretty clear on who gets to decide how money is spent.

Edric O · June 28, 2004

a good captain doesnt encourage mutiny.

No, but a good captain should encourage his men to think twice before sailing straight into a sand bank just because he ordered them to. A good captain should also encourage his men to warn him if he's making a mistake. A good captain prefers to receive constructive criticism that helps him take better decisions, than to be obeyed without question even when he's making an obvious and fatal mistake.

To me there is no point trying to criticize the president in mid war.

Does that also hold true for the Germans in 1943?

The middle of a war is a very good time to question the president - because mistakes during a war can have far more severe consequences than mistakes during peacetime.

GUNWOUNDS · June 29, 2004

No, but a good captain should encourage his men to think twice before sailing straight into a sand bank just because he ordered them to. A good captain should also encourage his men to warn him if he's making a mistake. A good captain prefers to receive constructive criticism that helps him take better decisions, than to be obeyed without question even when he's making an obvious and fatal mistake.
Does that also hold true for the Germans in 1943?
The middle of a war is a very good time to question the president - because mistakes during a war can have far more severe consequences than mistakes during peacetime.

yes it holds true for germany.. because even if a german citizen tried to question hitler nothing would have come of it except for the person's execution...

the middle of a war is when the president/dictator/leader/captain

ordos45 · June 29, 2004

We were a charter member of the UN. I think it's less about defying the UN than it is irreparably damaging UN Relations.

Edric O · June 29, 2004

yes it holds true for germany.. because even if a german citizen tried to question hitler nothing would have come of it except for the person's execution...

We were assuming that questioning the leader actually makes a difference - otherwise the whole argument is pointless.

So, if you've got Hitler as the leader of your country, and assuming you have the power to do something about him, should you take action? Should you question the insane decisions of a psychotic leader in the middle of a war? Damn right you should.

the middle of a war is when the president/dictator/leader/captain holds most authority and power.. to defy him or question him at that moment would achieve nothing and only bring about your own destruction/court-martial/imprisonment/execution not to mention stupid.

You say that as if you take it for granted. But the situation you're describing is one that must be avoided at all costs, not embraced. The president/leader should NEVER have the power to silence dissent. Not in peace time, not in the middle of a war, not ever. This is what I'm arguing.

GUNWOUNDS · June 29, 2004

You say that as if you take it for granted. But the situation you're describing is one that must be avoided at all costs, not embraced. The president/leader should NEVER have the power to silence dissent. Not in peace time, not in the middle of a war, not ever. This is what I'm arguing.

yes that would be nice.... but things are always different in the real world. ;)

Edric O · June 29, 2004

I wasn't aware that in the real world people have their rights violated every time there is a war. Where have you been for the past 100 years?

GUNWOUNDS · June 29, 2004

I wasn't aware that in the real world people have their rights violated every time there is a war. Where have you been for the past 100 years?

umm yes they do... show me a war where people havent suffered or lost rights?

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