Face dancers

[Vanguard3000]

In GEoD, the face dancers usually don't change or anything; they're just lasgun fodder.  I remmeber one scene in which they do change en-masse, though, and they only changed to look like other people.  As I recall, when they changed back to face dancers, they had to cast off their disguising cloaks.

[Dunenewt]

One changed to become the High Priest Tuek didn't he?

[Andrew]

Heretics of Dune spoilers

[hide]Yes a face dancer "became" the high priest Tuek in almost every single way. The face dancer even beleived he was the priest in the end and not a face dancer. But that is what they are meant to become.

And many more became honored matres and other people in high places.

[/hide]

[Lord J]

  Right, and that was, like, a new breed of Face Dancers.

  What about the fight between Fenrig and the Face Dancer in House Corrino?  I think it shifted back to its natural form, but I'm too lazy to get up, find the reference, and type it out.

[TMA_1]

a q tip vanguard? lol

[Vanguard3000]

When I wrote that, I was thinking of a comic I saw a long time ago.  It was entitled "Odo's Worst Nightmare" and showed Quark using a Q-Tip, which had a thought bubble coming from it:  "Oh dear God NO!"

[Abelian]

Hi,

From what I understand the Face Dancer retains the form they have taken on at death - Scytale himself describes 'himself' in DUNE MESSIAH as a hybrids and androgynous hermaphrodite, meaning neither male nor female. They can shapeshift because they have nerve linkages and musculatures normal humans do not possess and the Tleilaxu have clearly genetically engineered the Face Dancers for this purpose. Supposedly they are at the lowest rank of the Tleilaxu culture but Scytale rises to become an immortal master; so clearly there are advantages to having a face for every occasion! He is my favourite character and I have written his memoirs for fun and they can be read at:

www.freewebs.com/scytale

Hope you enjoy reading his despicable adventures as much as I enjoyed writing them!

[Dante]

It isn't just extra biological bits and pieces, but artificial additions as well. Also, it's a great piece of work and all, but you really don't need to post it in every thread.

Edit: Given that I have the Dune Encyclopaedia now, I think it's kind of obvious that they revert on death. There is no way that the muscular tension could be maintained after dying.

[3ngel]

From what i've understood about facedancers, in FH books, there is no mention about a "muscular action" to change form, or a "muscular energy" spent to maintain their form.

For this reason i think that a Face Dancer, for definition, has not a face of his own, and so it can be any face it wants.

I thinks a face dancer trasformation is connected to a DNA real-time transformation, ordered by the brain.

So i think when a face dancer dies, it simply mantain its last form before death.

[TMA_1]

hmm I remember reading a part about a face dancer after death. It seemed to indicatethat te face reverts to a formless kind of feature

[Dante]

From what i've understood about facedancers, in FH books, there is no mention about a "muscular action" to change form, or a "muscular energy" spent to maintain their form.

For this reason i think that a Face Dancer, for definition, has not a face of his own, and so it can be any face it wants.

I thinks a face dancer trasformation is connected to a DNA real-time transformation, ordered by the brain.

So i think when a face dancer dies, it simply mantain its last form before death.

Face Dancers don't change their DNA. Even if that were possible, it would be completely useless for duplicating, for example, scars or mannerisms. Their method is hardly touched on in the novels, but explained in great detail in the Encyclopaedia. Muscular contration or relaxation is required to change any and all aspects of the body, from hair colour to height. Thus in death, the Dancer would revert.

[MauDib]

From what I've read, the Herbert foundation has disavowed any ties with the Dune Encyclopedia, so I don't know that anything the encyclopedia has to say about the subject still applies ???.  That being said, would rigor mortis set in the same for a face dancer as for a "normal" person?  If that were the case, isn't it plausible that one would retain the form one were in when one perished?  You know, keeping in mind that the face dancers employed zero muscular control in making a change...

[Dante]

Who runs the Herbert foundation? If those morons who wrote the prequels have anything to do with it then I wouldn't be surprised. Furthermore, even if the foundation is independent, then I would prefer to hold to Frank Herbert's introduction than their current opinion. The heirarchy of canon, as far as I'm concerned, runs:

Original six books > The Encyclopaedia > Other media (Movie, miniseries, etc) > Prequels.

The books do not make any references to how Face Dancers do what they do, but the process is explained in great detail by the Encyclopaedia. Height is changed by expanding or contracting especially enlarged discs between vertebrae, via muscular control. This requires constant effort to maintain, and most face dancers would have to relax their muscles every so often. Hair colour is changed... well for starters face dancers don't actually have hair. They have extremely thin fibres of some material (I forget what) embedded in their heads. These fibres change colour according to the temperature of their base, which again is modified by muscular control. It is mentioned that this technique took a while to perfect, and early face dancers' hair colour had been known to change on hot days.

The same is true of just about every other aspect. Various pumps and bags inflate or deflate to provide the appearance of breasts or extra weight. Gender is not actually changed (all face dancers are sterile males), but physical appearance is.

Now, I would prefer to think that there is slightly more to it than that, but given the absence of a better explanation (and the impossibility of one ever arising), this is the best that we are going to get. Face dancers use muscular effort to maintain their shapes, and therefore upon death would revert into their natural state. They would then dissolve, since the Tleilaxu didn't want anyone knowing their secrets and made certain that no face dancers corpses could ever be examined. Rigor mortis would not be an issue, since it would not have time to set in.

[NeoDevilbane]

FH had nothing to do with the encyclopedia, and likely his outline for Dune 7 and other background material directly conflicted with it... probably this was enough to make BH/KJA disregard it.

[Dante]

I would be more of the opinion that they saw Dr McNelly as an unwelcome competitor. Someone who had actually gained Frank Herbert's official sanction and approval, something that they will never have. Someone who had produced a fine work, detailed and thought-provoking; something that they will never do. Thus all rubbishing of the Encyclopaedia on their part (either directly, such as a refusal to work with Dr McNelly while he was still alive; or indirectly, in publishing material that conflicts with the Encyclopaedia) can be equated to envy.

[MrFlibble]

AFAIK, FH himself welcomed various interpretations of his books, even if they contradicted his own views, understanding that there are as many views as people. I believe that FH wanted his works to be for everyone, not just for the "cosen ones" who know "what the author meant by writing this and this".

I must confess that I found it fascinating to re-enter here some of the sources on which the Chronicles are built. As the first "Dune fan", I give this encyclopedia my delighted approval, although I hold my own counsel on some of the issues still to be explored as the Chronicles unfold.

BH/KJA lack this tolerance, and this speaks against them. I'm deeply offended by them prohibiting further publications of the Encyclopedia.

[Dante]

They did that? Geez, and there was me wondering why it was so rare.

*Is also deeply offended*

[MrFlibble]

I've read this information somewhere here on the forum, or maybe in Wikipedia... At least, this explains why you can't find any new Encyclopedia publications.

EDIT: Yes, the info is from Wikipedia.

Brian Herbert has declared The Dune Encyclopedia non-canon on the official Dune site:

"THE DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA reflects an alternate "DUNE universe" which did not necessarily represent the "canon" created by Frank Herbert. Frank Herbert's son, Brian Herbert, writing with Kevin J. Anderson, IS continuing to establish the canon of the DUNE universe. This is being done with the full approval of the owner of the DUNE copyright, the Herbert Limited Partnership.

He also didn't allow further editions of the encyclopedia to ensure more attention to his own books.

[3ngel]

Brian Herbert has declared The Dune Encyclopedia non-canon on the official Dune site

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

No other words  :)

[Dante]

What are you babbling about now?

[3ngel]

The books do not make any references to how Face Dancers do what they do, but the process is explained in great detail by the Encyclopaedia. Height is changed by expanding or contracting especially enlarged discs between vertebrae, via muscular control. This requires constant effort to maintain, and most face dancers would have to relax their muscles every so often. Hair colour is changed... well for starters face dancers don't actually have hair. They have extremely thin fibres of some material (I forget what) embedded in their heads. These fibres change colour according to the temperature of their base, which again is modified by muscular control. It is mentioned that this technique took a while to perfect, and early face dancers' hair colour had been known to change on hot days.

The same is true of just about every other aspect. Various pumps and bags inflate or deflate to provide the appearance of breasts or extra weight. Gender is not actually changed (all face dancers are sterile males), but physical appearance is.

I think this is an interesting explanation of all the process, but concerning the fact:

They would then dissolve, since the Tleilaxu didn't want anyone knowing their secrets and made certain that no face dancers corpses could ever be examined

This would imply a deep modification of all the methabolism at a cellular level, so if they can auto-dissolve themselves, is kind plausible they change their appearence at a cellular level (not muscular).

In the end, if they use muscular is probable their state remain the same ('cause of the rigor mortis) if a violent and immediate death occurs, or they return to the "neutral state" if the death is not immediate and they have the time to "reset" themselves (relaxing the muscles).In this case is improbable they are able to dissolve themselves.

[Dante]

That was poorly phrased. However, the Encyclpedia states:

Failure of a face dancer's central nervous system released powerful enzymes that broke down the cell walls in order to prevent his body structure being revealed by dissection.

Ergo, this is not 'self-dissolving,' as the stimulus is essentially death; and rigor mortis simply does not have a chance to occur. It's an automatic process.

Though the face dancers do have some cellular modifications, these are achieved by surgery and hormonal addition. The actual changes of appearence are done through muscular action, and so even if the dancer did not dissolve upon death, it would not retain its shape.

[3ngel]

That was poorly phrased

You were biten by the tarantula? :) You're quite nervous :)

Failure of a face dancer's central nervous system released powerful enzymes that broke down the cell walls in order to prevent his body structure being revealed by dissection

This is a good argumentation to my objection, 'cause we can say we have an example of this "cellular wall broke" in Leto II death (even if in that case it was more precisely "cellular independant separation"), but in the end apart the embryonal worms, even the "human rest" dissolved themselves (except pheraps a little piece of head), cause of i suppose the same enzime that made possible the hybrid join (human-worm).