Mongols in 13 century kinda like the Fremen

[Guest Fremen Warrior]

Both of them were fierce, devided people who are united under one strong leader and conquered a vast amount of land. Both were excellent fighters from youth. So do you agree that they are alike?

[Acriku]

Well that would go under many different sub-categories of the Human species. Mongolians (which are Mongols, right?) are a good example, I can't think of any others this late at night but I'll think of some sometime.

[Klobbersaurus414]

Uh, i dunno, the mongols had water. Anyway, Sarukie is a funny word, remember that.

[salikadali]

The Fremen were like Mongols in that they were fierce fighters, but the Mongols were murderous- (they would slaughter whole cities of men, women, and children), only to set examples of terror to the people they conquered. The Fremen, I think, were somewhat more moral. The Mongols had no specific religion, but adopted many religious ideas and beliefs from those they conquered- i.e. Islam. The Mongols excelled at warfare, but were less able to govern, eventually losing control of most of their conquered territories through internal conflict and rebellions. The reality of what they conquered is staggering; almost all of Asia- by the 1400's, from parts of East Germany-Poland to India, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Balkans and the Black sea area,and most of China. Ghengis Kahn's grandson, Kublia Khan, invaded and conquered southern China, then attempted an invasion of Japan, but failed due to storms at sea. The Japanese refer to these storms as the "Divine Wind."

[salikadali]

Interesting Historical sidenote:

I do not know the exact date, but there was a battle that took place in the Germany-Poland area between a large force of European Knights and the Mongol Horde under Batu Khan(Gengis's nephew). Batu was in charge of the Golden Horde, which was a section of the Mongol Empire around the Black sea area. The Mongols decided to send a "scouting and raiding detachment" of around 20,000 light and heavy cavalry. (a full Mongol army could consist of 100,000 or more at that time.) The Europeans, mostly Knights of German feudal lords, took to the field around 40,000, but mostly foot soldiers. The Europeans did have cavalry, mounted Knights in heavy armor of equal numbers or more than the Mongols.

The Mongols used a tactic they had used many times before- they sent out a small, fast force of light cavalry to within view of the Knights, then withdrew. The European knights, sensing an easy victory, and inexperienced with this type of warfare, charged after the light cavalry, unable to catch them. They committed a grave error, allowing the enemy to choose the ground, and at the same time separating themselves from the foot soldiers. The 20,000 or so Mongols surrounded the slower heavily armed Knights, and proceeded to fire arrows from horseback, thining the ranks of the knights, killing thier horses, and creating panic and confusion. After that, the Mongols attacked with their full force, which included their own heavy cav, armored, and armed with scimitars and spears- against the Knights. Heavy casualties on both sides, but the knights were decemated and the Mongols won the battle. The Mongols did not penetrate any further into Europe than this.

Around this time, there was also a large battle near Buda-Pest with Mongols and the Hungarian Cavalry(which was one of the most powerful armies in Europe) that the Mongols won(this was one of the first uses of artillery, Mongolian catapults lobing gunpowder bombs at the Hungarian Cavalry encampments.)Batu was planning an invasion of Europe, then, suddenly Ghengis Khan died, leaving his succession in dispute, and Batu abandoned his plans for the European invasion and returned to Mongolia. One can only wonder how history might have changed, considering how divided Europe was at the time.

[daniel]

KEWL...........

[Klobbersaurus414]

Gee, you did all that research and what-not just to back up a point. Man you have too much free time.

[quoudam72]

Ggeshino you have been secretly looking at my notes you scoundrel. JK;D

[ordos45]

Frank Herbert used history in some ways so it makes since the fremen are like the mongols.

[sniper]

The Fremen to me are similar to the Fedayeen's in Afghanistan during the Soviet-Afghan War of the 80's. They dressed the same, had little water, and fought very much guerilla style.

Except those same Fedayeen fighters are now Taleban radicals, which didn't happen to the Fremen :)

[the_red_duke]

I think Fremens were every bit as brutal and barbaric as Mongolians during those ancient times.

They killed billions of people across the known universe.

Let me bring in the lines from 'Dune Messiah',

"Stilgar," Paul said,"you urgently need a sense of balance which can come only from an understanding of long-term effects. What little information we have about the old times, the pittance of data which the Butlerians left us, Korba has brought it for you. Start with Genghis Khan."

"Genghis ...Khan? Was he of the Sardaukar, m'Lord?"

"Oh, long before that. He killed ...perhaps four million."

"He must've had a formidable weaponry to kill that many, Sire. Lasbeams, perhaps, or..."

"He didn't kill them himself, Stil. He killed the way I kill, by sending out his legions...

[quoudam72]

Interesting that you brought that up Ordos23 about the Soviet-Afghan conflict from the 80's.

[salikadali]

In my opinion, the Mongols were similar in that they conquered, but, it seems to me, Herbert's idea of the Fremen was of a different sort. The Fremen were oppressed by the Harkonnen, and they had a strict religion, and social order, based on survival. I agree with Ordos23, in that they kind of resemble the Isalmic fighters. I have studied Islam, and Herbert undoubtedly references it in regard to the Fremen. - Thoughts of Stilgar in reference to his fear of the twin children of Paul: (Children of Dune pg.6)

"I am an attendent yet, and my Master is God the Merciful, the Compassionate."

-and this part is almost(if not totally from the Quran)- thoughts of Stilgar as he quotes to himself a Fremen belief(Children of Dune, same page)-

"Surely, We have put on their necks fetters up to the chin, so their heads are raised; and WE have put before them a barrier and behind them a barrier; and We have covered them, so they do not see." Thus it was written in the old Fremen religion.-

In the Quran,(the english translation) "We" is capitalized, because it refers to God. The same is true here. I have no doubt that Herbert was thinking of Islam, when he was thinking of the Fremen. I agree, the fictional Fremen were similar to the Mongols in that they conquered, but there are underlying fundamental differences in regard to religion, and, I beleive, Herbert's Fremen had some sense of compassion and mercy, beyond just conquering, Which the Mongols were known to be merciless,(for the most part), and the Mongols did not bring religion, they just conquered and ruled, and some of the Mongols actually converted to Islam, and the ethnic Kurds in Iraq are decendents of the Mongols. Hmmm, interesting. Im not trying to justify the "Fremen Jihad," here. I am just pointing out some interesting things, and the differences(I believe) between the Mongols and Herbet's Fremen.