God, Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Free Will

[nemafakei]

"God knew you would post this thread... does that make it any less of a free choice made by you ?"

No, but that the fact that he created a universe in which he chose that I would post this thread does.

"the 10 commands cannot apply to him?"

I am not talking about anyspecific Judaeochristian god, but any god. I suppose I'm relying a little on the existence of an objective morality, but that's mostly inherent in the 'There is evil in this world' assumption.

"i have a choice whether or not i will die of lung cancer by whether or not i pick up that pack of cigarretes and get addicted or just walk past them when i see them in the store"

But what you choose is predefined by God, because he either created the universe in such a way that you would 'choose' to die of lung cancer knowing that you would choose that, or he chose to create the universe in such a way that he hnew you would 'choose' not to.

"When the trinity existed all by itself before God created the universe....there was no evil right?"

I do not agree. There was no before the universe, and I do not begin with the assumtion that God is by definition good.

"also when God created  the planets and stars there was no evil there still right?"

Ok.

"but when God created Man... there was the possibility of Disobedience..... i guess that is a problem with sentient life and Free Will..."

When man came into being, so also did evil. God created man, and by doing so created evil. Even if you use the word possibility, God, being omniscient, will know the outcome of the possibility, and so will be responsible for the actual creation of evil.

"I think to ensure that disobedience never exists... you have to created mindless drones..."

I am saying we are all mindless drones and have no free will if we are created by someone who knows precisely what he's doing when he creates us.

"Well, from the Deist point of view, God created the world, and, using his omnipotence, removed his omniscience "

So long as you mean he removed omniscience before creating everything, then yes, that would work - but that would be a solution in which we have a rather falliable god... (but I won't spend too much time on this possibility, since it's outsede the initial assumptions)

[GUNWOUNDS]

well this was an interesting thread i certainly found some new perspectives i hadnt thought of.

However i am wondering when some of the more vocal members such as Edrico or Emprworm will chime in with a view or response.

[Wolf]

Why would God have to have removed his omniscience before creation? I don't understand how that has to be a necessarily drawn conclusion, Nema.

[nemafakei]

Because otherwise, creation would occur, and God would still have the question of whether to create the world with or without evil.

[sneezer3]

I don't get it Nema.. What makes you think it is pre-defined? The Lord knows the end of the outcome yes. But.. Maybe I should put it this way.

If you knew the future, would the future be pre-destined to change to that future? assumeing you didn't affect it of course. Would there be any less free will? It would be freely chosen the same. It would have been freely chosen to begin with. Just knowing the outcome.

[Cyborg]

One funny thing I though of was that if God knew everything that was going to happen, even he wouldn't have had free will...

[Wolf]

Why else would he get himself crucified?

[nemafakei]

"If you knew the future, would the future be pre-destined to change to that future?"

Well, if you're omniscient, you also know all the changes that will affect and create the future.

Beyond that, you'll have to explain more clearly.

"One funny thing I though of was that if God knew everything that was going to happen, even he wouldn't have had free will... "

Well, if God is time-independant, that isn't really a problem.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Well, if God is time-independant, that isn't really a problem.

i didnt understand could you explain.

[nemafakei]

Well, if he is outside of the universe and outside of time, then presumably, his thought decisions are an instantaneous and complete logical analysis of all possibilities simultaneously, and consequent initiation and facilitation of the universe, then he would choose whatever fitted his particular best interests or whatever his goal were to be.

But the more I try to rationalise god in a way which makes sense and doesn't just sound woolly, the more I find there to be nothing really that quite works.

[Edric O]

At creation, God, being omniscient, knew exactly how everything would turn out.

There lies your mistake. You assume omniscience means knowing the future. I believe there is no such thing as "THE future". There is an infinite number of possible futures. God, being omniscient, knows them all. Human beings, having free will, are capable of choosing which one of these possible futures becomes reality.

In brief, God knows all the possible choices and their results, but He does not know what humans will choose.

[Cyborg]

How can you say he's wrong and you're right when you just base your argument on your personal view?

[Edric O]

How can you base your argument on anything else in matters of religion?

[Cyborg]

You can base your arguments on whatever you see fit.

But neither of you are really wrong or right...

[Wolf]

Well, Edric, I have a question. Does omniscience include the knowledge of which possible future humanity will choose?

[Caid Ivik]

"To know" is to understand something you've discovered. As God had nothing to discover, as He created everything and oversees everything without a need of waiting, I think talking about His knowledge as something irelevant. Same nonsense as God's morality. Those are terms which were given to Him by humans, who couldn't understand the basics of Him. More you look into the thing, more you find out that simply need new words.

[Nyarlathotep]

what are you getting at ?

Sorry for my late reply...

I replied to your question that God came to earth as Man, not as beast. You figured mankind has to mean something. I just replied with a few things why he decided to come to earth as man and not beast (without assuming we were superior to beasts).

[Edric O]

Well, Edric, I have a question. Does omniscience include the knowledge of which possible future humanity will choose?

I suppose that depends on your definition of "omniscience". According to my definition, it doesn't.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I suppose that depends on your definition of "omniscience". According to my definition, it doesn't.

are you saying we are unpredictable?

[Caid Ivik]

"To predict" means to know what will happen in the future. However, how can you talk about anything in the future, if the subject isn't affected by time?

[Edric O]

are you saying we are unpredictable?

Well, yes. Among other things, we have the ability to do something for no reason at all. Maybe I'll wave my hands in the air for a few seconds. Maybe I'll take a pen and draw random lines on a sheet of paper. Why? No reason. These are trivial examples, of course, but they show just how unpredictable humans can be.

And then there is the prophecy paradox, which applies only to intelligent lifeforms such as human beings: If you knew the future, then you could take steps to change it. But if you change the future, that means the "future' you knew wasn't the real future, so you didn't actually know the future after all.

[Caid Ivik]

I think your philosophy just entered the right way, EdricO  ;D

[nemafakei]

"He does not know what humans will choose"

Then he does not know everything, and so is not omniscient, by the very definiton of the word.

Besides, a god who has no idea how humans will react has no more idea how to do good than you or I.

Besides, why doesn't he know what we are going to choose?

[Anathema]

If God could predict what humans would choose, then why would he have made Saul king over Israel and then regretted it? That's what I was trying to say last post.

If we are pure mechanical creatures, meaning that every thought and emotion can be explained chemicly, then God can "calculate" what we're going to do and could affect the universe in such a way that humans act the way he wants just as certainly as domino blocks fall when you push the fist one. Free will would thus be non existant.

[Cyborg]

If we are pure mechanical creatures, meaning that every thought and emotion can be explained chemicly

Why shouldn't we be?

I think so.