God, Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Free Will

[nemafakei]

This question has been touched upon before, but I want to find an answer - if there is one.

Let us assume the following:

The world is partly evil.

There exists an omnipotent, omniscient creator-god.

The word everything is taken to mean all entities that exist outsede of God himself, including angels and devils and what have you.

At creation, God, being omniscient, knew exactly how everything would turn out. Being omnipotent, he could choose the exact specification, and could change any aspect of everything that he did not like. Even if he could be considered to have given his subjects 'free will', he knew exactly what they would do with it, and indeed by creating people with 'free will', he indirectly chooses the thoughts in their head by the way in which he created them.

Now, since this god has the power to change any of everything, and free will is irrelevant to his calculations, we come to the conclusion that he created or at least condones evil.

Oh, and the question is: Have I made a mistake, or is God by necessity not entirely good?

[Nyarlathotep]

Oh, and the question is: Have I made a mistake, or is God by necessity not entirely good?

If there is a God, I'd say you have made no mistakes (it's reality ?). But I forsee a long discussion, with in the end you still have the same question :)

[GUNWOUNDS]

To me this has to do with pre-destination vs Free Will

C.S. Lewis states that he feels that God views our life as a one page comic book...

he sees everything you do in your life as present tense....

he doesnt forget the things you did yesterday even tho tommorrow has past.... he still sees you doing them.... and you dont shock or surprise him by the things you do in the future because he sees you doing them already....

I have asked about this many times to people more knowledgeable than myself.... and their responses in summary are:

You have free will.... but because we all have 20/20 hindsight and because your collection of actions will eventually create a life come to past.... pre-destination also exists....

However... God uses divine intervention to weave inbetween both .... giving you the benefit of the doubt ... time and time again... trying to change your destiny....

And if someone is pre-destined to die and go to hell... yet by some miracle God's sutle intervention

[Caid Ivik]

Saying that God is "good" or "bad" is a nonsense. Morality needs a definition base, which itself can't be morally measured. If God can be judged, then it would be no God, don't you think? When he defines what is good for us, it looks like he is good, and we christians believe he is so (tough we can only believe and hope, otherwise...), we think that we are a result of His love. But in fact writing the Law automatically means definition what is bad. Tough saying that "God created evil" is like if you would build a tower and then you'll be known for the shadow it makes.

[GUNWOUNDS]

If God can be judged, then it would be no God, don't you think?

Wow that is a very powerful statement.... God cannot be judged...

Good job Caid you are really thinking this morning !

also i  would like to add that i think its like the Darkness/light

[Cyborg]

I can't really understand why God can know absolutely everything in the future. He was many times furious over some people's behaviour. Why would he not do something to prevent those disasters from happening?

Also, I see God as a non-perfect god. He has done many things which would, after his rules, be considered bad.

Why shouldn't we be allowed to judge God? Is he some sort of dictator?

I think he has too much power... "Whom are you to judge me?!"

There are extremely many theories about what God really is, and I think that the whole faith and its texts are far to vague to come to any conclusion in a religious debate...

Perhaps I should mention that I'm an atheist, but you should know that already.

[Dante]

I once heard this nicely summarised (can't remember where) as: There is evil in the world. God is all powerful. God is all good. And yet there is evil. Can God choose to remove all evil but does not? Then he is not all good. Would he like to stop all evil but is unable? Then he is not all powerful.

An interesting problem that someone once tried to answer to me by saying that human beings choose to be good or evil. God is all powerful though, no? A dictator. In which case his creations have

(a) no free will anyway and

(b) are subject to god's whims on good and evil.

This former point can also be proven logically, proving predestination and the non-existance of free will (but, importantly, not the existance of god).

And saying that god should not be judged is really kind of annoying. It's dismissing the argument by saying that we can't possibly comprehend the workings of something so vastly beyond ourselves. In which case what relevence does something so distant from us have to us; and what kind of unquestionable dictator (like Stalin) has been set up here?

[GUNWOUNDS]

I can't really understand why God can know absolutely everything in the future. He was many times furious over some people's behaviour. Why would he not do something to prevent those disasters from happening?

Also, I see God as a non-perfect god. He has done many things which would, after his rules, be considered bad.

Why shouldn't we be allowed to judge God? Is he some sort of dictator?

I think he has too much power... "Whom are you to judge me?!"

There are extremely many theories about what God really is, and I think that the whole faith and its texts are far to vague to come to any conclusion in a religious debate...

Perhaps I should mention that I'm an atheist, but you should know that already.

well you got to stop thinking of God as a person...

thats the problem.... calling him a dictator and asking why cant i judge him?

[GUNWOUNDS]

And saying that god should not be judged is really kind of annoying. It's dismissing the argument by saying that we can't possibly comprehend the workings of something so vastly beyond ourselves. In which case what relevence does something so distant from us have to us

what relevance..... yes..... what is our purpose..... thats what we are all trying to figure out ...

[Dante]

I meant that if god is so powerful and beyond our comprehension and all that then why do we bother? Something so far away and so unreachable is hardly useful.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I meant that if god is so powerful and beyond our comprehension and all that then why do we bother? Something so far away and so unreachable is hardly useful.

exactly.... i tihnk that God understood this in the Old testament.... there was a barrier between God and man... i think in the temple there was a veil or something i dont recall the exact name ... but it represented this barrier you speak of dustscout....

I guess thats maybe why he decided to do the whole Jesus thing.... give us something to relate to.

I mean if Jesus was God incarnate... then those disciples were the luckiest men on earth... they got to be with him on such a personal level... he even washed their feet.

Often times when i think of how far away and mysterious God is... all i have to do is tihnk of jesus and who he was and what he did... and it helps.

[Anathema]

I often wondered about the nature of God's omniscience. At first I thought it was like Paul's future sight in Dune, but that doesn't make much sense. For instance, God regretted having made Saul king over Israel. If He knew Saul was going to disobey him, He woudln't have made him king right? I suppose that's what free will is. Free will would be meaningless if God already knew that we're going to dissobey him and everything would be pre destined.

More logical would be that God knows what will happen in the future because that's the way he has planned it.

[Caid Ivik]

I can't really understand why God can know absolutely everything in the future. He was many times furious over some people's behaviour. Why would he not do something to prevent those disasters from happening?

Also, I see God as a non-perfect god. He has done many things which would, after his rules, be considered bad.

Why shouldn't we be allowed to judge God? Is he some sort of dictator?

I think he has too much power... "Whom are you to judge me?!"

There are extremely many theories about what God really is, and I think that the whole faith and its texts are far to vague to come to any conclusion in a religious debate...

Perhaps I should mention that I'm an atheist, but you should know that already.

We are "allowed" to judge Him, but it makes no sense.

[GUNWOUNDS]

.

More logical would be that God knows what will happen in the future because that's the way he has planned it.

Good idea... and you know what?..... even when things go wrong.. it STILL happens the way he plans it....

meaning Adam messing up in the garden wasnt the end of it... God knew Jesus would be coming.... sure it was a long time .. but time means nothing to God.

See people look at it like.... God messed up with Adam and had to use Jesus as a backup plan.... but what if Jesus was always part of the plan?.... think about that...

[Nyarlathotep]

Also

[GUNWOUNDS]

Not as beast, cause he knew how cruel people can be when it comes to animals ? Cause mankind poses a larger part of the world ? Cause mankind is widly spread and seem to dominate the world we live in ?

what are you getting at ?

[Cyborg]

I do not see God as a person.

However it's easier to make my points then.

[nemafakei]

A few things for which I have time to reply.

"However... God uses divine intervention to weave inbetween both ..."

Uh, how does this work, logically speaking? How does god give anyone a choice when he knows what you'll do with it?

"If God can be judged, then it would be no God, don't you think?"

Why does a creator have to have define or exemplify morality? Why can't we judge God, be it by his own standards or by ours?

"And if someone is pre-destined to die and go to hell... yet by some miracle God's sutle intervention  changes their destiny"

But god decided their destiny in the first place!

"i think its like the Darkness/light  example"

Even if it is (personally, I'm more of the view that an empty universe contains no evil), then why is there still evil? Why can't an omnipotent God create good all over?

[GUNWOUNDS]

A few things for which I have time to reply.

"However... God uses divine intervention to weave inbetween both ..."

Uh, how does this work, logically speaking? How does god give anyone a choice when he knows what you'll do with it?

"If God can be judged, then it would be no God, don't you think?"

Why does a creator have to have define or exemplify morality? Why can't we judge God, be it by his own standards or by ours?

"And if someone is pre-destined to die and go to hell... yet by some miracle God's sutle intervention

[Dante]

2.) How can you judge God by his own standards? ... the 10 commands cannot apply to him?

[GUNWOUNDS]

Anyone who does not follow their own rules is a hypocrite. And flooding the earth doesn't sound very much like following "Thou shalt not kill."

some of his rules are impossible for him to follow.... like idolizing another God? ... thats impossible for him...

and  "thou shall not kill" is abbreviated.... it actually translates

"A Human shall not kill another Human that is innocent"

Which does not apply to him at all....and when he flooded the earth he put innocents in the Ark i believe. ;)

still tho Caid's words just kinda make the most sense to me....

You are "allowed" to judge God .. but it doesnt make any sense.

Its like flea trying to judge me cause i took a shower and washed him down the drain.

[Wolf]

Well, from the Deist point of view, God created the world, and, using his omnipotence, removed his omniscience -- blinded himself to the actions of mankind. As a result, human beings now have free will, and in all aspects of the universe not having to do with man, God can predict exactly. However, humanity is deprived of direct help from God, since God, when compared to man, is plagued by the same inability to see the future as they are. God becomes decidedly human.

An interesting point is that this point of view may mesh with classic Christianity. Might not Jesus' death be the blinding of God? A sacrifice of God in the service of man? If this is so, then the crucifixion of Jesus, of God, also granted man free will. And explains the general lack of miracles after the Biblical era.

Moving on from this, we can also further conclude tha, if man has free will, man has the power to impart whatever meaning onto the world that he wishes to impart on it. Therefore, there is no inherent good or evil, but humankind, being divine by nature, has the ability to create either. The evil, then, is our own creation. And, if really given the choice -- abolishing evil or having free will -- we would not have it any other way.

So, it is not so much God that is partly evil, it is man that is so. Then again, if man is divine by nature, and this nature is power of free will, and it is free will that allows for evil to exist, it is free will that is partly evil, and therefore, God, too, is connected to this. Yet, the basic evil actions existed with those of men, not God.

[TMA_1]

not sure if this helps nema, but in Jeremiah it mentions that God is a sort of Choriographer (bad spelling, sue me.lol ;) ). He lets people have their free will and works around it and through it. it is late and I am kinda out of it so I am not sure if this is what you are getting at, I will just look at this tomorrow morning and make the proper changes that are required.lol

also the barrier that you mentioned gunwounds is how you pointed out. Because of the rift between God and man only a select few "priests" could cross the veil.

This is an important idea in christianity. Remember when christ died and the veil ripped? this was a sign that there no longer was a rift between God and man because of jesus christ who connected man back to God. And the veil was ripped supernaturally as a symbol that there no longer is a rift, and in fact that all people can become priests to individually come to the Lord.

[EWS]

3.) No they decide their destiny.... i have a choice whether or not i will die of lung cancer by whether or not i pick up that pack of cigarretes and get addicted or just walk past them when i see them in the store.  A way that God may intervene will be for me to happen to run into a man in a wheelchair hooked up to an oxygen tank.... which would help reinforce that mindset.

Firstly your example is flawed.  Although smoking does increase your chances of lung cancer, you can still catch lung cancer without smoking.  Therefore, if God had predetermined me to die of lung cancer, whether I smoked or not, only a miracle can stop that.  I am not deciding my destiny.  Personally, I feel that if there is a God then free will does not exist.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Firstly your example is flawed.