Feyd-Rautha's child

[AeonGrey]

I mentioned this in another thread and I felt this warranted its own topic.  Maybe this has been discussed here before...don't know.  Anyway, I just finished my third reading of Dune and one story element in particular is standing out in my mind:  Feyd-Rautha's bastard child.  It mentions this in at least 2 places I can remember.  The first being the scene in which Fenring and his lady Margot Fenring are discussing Feyd-Rautha.  I think it was either before or after his gladiator match...I believe after.  Anyway, at one point Margot says something like "he will be easy to seduce...".  The second place this is mentioned is at the end of the book.  The thought crosses Reverend Mother Mohiam's mind during that last confrontational scene between Paul/Feyd/Emperor.  She thinks something like "and what of the bastard child of Feyd-Rautha?".  Is any of this mentioned again in any of the later books?  Because didn't the BG have their eye on him as part of their little Kwisatz Haderach scheme?  Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Mahdi]

I always figured it was a plotline Frank was planning to bring up in Messiah or Children, but he never did directly.  House Harkonnen is stated to have survived the Arrakis Revolt, so maybe the kid took over.  Who knows?

[AeonGrey]

I always figured it was a plotline Frank was planning to bring up in Messiah or Children, but he never did directly.

[Egeides]

And when you said omnion, did you meant onion? I just wanted to be sure...

[Don't worry about me, I'm fine, I'm fine...]

[Inoculator9]

It's an interesting point, but I doubt Frank had any intention of running with it. It would be an interesting shadow novel though.

[Scott]

Is any of this mentioned again in any of the later books?

[nemafakei]

I'm pretty sure a daughter of Feyd's was mentioned in one of the books. I suspect it was Messiah - of which I don't have a copy.

[AeonGrey]

I'm pretty sure a daughter of Feyd's was mentioned in one of the books. I suspect it was Messiah - of which I don't have a copy.

Hmmm...I think you're right.  It was a daughter.....I think

[Scott]

I checked and it doesn't appear to be in Messiah, unless someone wants to pick it up and read it again, we'll just have to assume that its just not there. When you think about it, whats the point of mentioning it anyway? The Breeding program (at least for the KH) is basically over and done with by the end of Dune, so there's no reason to mention it in that regard. And what other purpose does the baby really serve after that? So the whole idea was just dropped, and it wouldn't be really interesting, I think, anyway.

This is probably the one and only mention and is from the scene that Aeon pointed out:

"This could be a major catastrophe for the Bene Gesserit breeding scheme. She had seen somethign of what Paul had seen here, that Feyd-Rautha might kill but not be victorious. Another thought, though, almost overwhelmed her. Two end products of this long and costly program faced each other in a fight to the death that might easily claim both of them. If both died here that would leave only Feyd-Rautha's bastard daughter, still a baby, an unknown, an unmeasured factor, and Alia, the abomination." - Mohiam (p. 483 of dune)

[Inoculator9]

Why should we assume it isn't if you didn't in fact go back and reread it? I'm inclined to believe it is, simply based on Nema saying so, lol. He's ten times smarter than any human being you'd ever encounter in your life.

[Mahdi]

Nema's wrong, it's never mentioned again.

[Inoculator9]

Again? I thought the issue was it being mentioned at all.

[Mahdi]

Well, it's mentioned when it happens.

[nemafakei]

"If both died here that would leave only Feyd-Rautha's bastard daughter, still a baby, an unknown, an unmeasured factor, and Alia, the abomination"

This was the passage I was thinking of.

[Mahdi]

Yeah, but that's in Dune, not any of the sequels.

[nemafakei]

True, but I deliberately didn't rule that possibility out.

[AeonGrey]

Okay so if Paul and Feyd are both "End products" of the breeding scheme, why wouldn't Feyd's daughter be of at least some value to the scheme?  I mean Paul's children were certainly born with great abilities...so why not Feyd's?  I'll agree with the fact that this plotline isn't really discussed anymore in the chronicles.  I've read them all and I don't recall it ever coming up again.  But think about it, the BG left with the daughter of a potential KH.  I understand that the Harkonnen/Atreides bloodline was the most important bloodline in the KH program, but there were obviously others.  For instance at the end of Dune, when Paul first sees Count Fenring, he recognizes that Fenring was pretty damn close to becoming a Kwisatz Haderach.  So there are other bloodlines.  I guess I was just thinking that with the other possibilities, that the child of Feyd could be somehow worked back into a new scheme for the BG.

[nemafakei]

I think Mohiam was already of the mind hat the KH was only supposed to occur when the Harkonnen gene was added again into Paul's genes - remember paul already had some harkonnen in him, and there was up to hald the KH bloodline missing from Feyd.

[Scott]

Why should we assume it isn't if you didn't in fact go back and reread it? I'm inclined to believe it is, simply based on Nema saying so, lol. He's ten times smarter than any human being you'd ever encounter in your life.

We can assume it isn't because I actually skimmed through all of Messiah to make sure, I just didn't want to come out and say it, seeing how incredibly nerdy it was.

I checked and it doesn't appear to be in Messiah...

Okay so if Paul and Feyd are both "End products" of the breeding scheme, why wouldn't Feyd's daughter be of at least some value to the scheme?

[Inoculator9]

Don't worry, Mahdi hates me too ;) And I'm on the staff :P

[AeonGrey]

I think when i said this:

"Okay so if Paul and Feyd are both "End products" of the breeding scheme, why wouldn't Feyd's daughter be of at least some value to the scheme?"

I worded it wrong and somehow didn't get across what I was trying to say.  I still don't see how a child of Feyd's wouldn't have ANY genetic value at all.  I mean obviously since the child was female she wouldn't be "born" a KH.  But....I don't know.  She'd still have some of that bloodline in her wouldn't she?  I have a hard time believing the BG didn't have a plan for her.

But before you start quoting me and replying to ever sentence I say, let me just say I don't really wanna debate this too harshly.  I realize that this daughter of his is never again mentioned in the rest of the books.  That's fine, it's just something I wanted to discuss.  Like what people think the possibilities could be.

[Scott]

Honestly, I didn't see it as a harsh debate. If your going to debate something be sure you have some ideas on what your opinions are and be prepared to have those ideas questioned. If I feel like quoting you on every line, its because your wrong and its my right to tell you and provide a good reason.

If Paul and Feyd are the END PRODUCTS of the breeding scheme. Thats it. There will be no other exception because the one who comes out on top will ultimately be the KW. Paul is the one who comes out on top, literally, Paul is the KH.

Here's an unnecessarily cruel diagram:

  OTHER PRODUCTS

-------------------(END PRODUCT)

Note: Their are no other products after the end product.

Feyd's daughter is a result of the impregnation of Margot Lady Fenring, and we can't say for sure if that genetic pairing would have been more potent than the genetic pairings that produced Feyd and Paul. But I think it wouldn't have and therefore would be no threat to the true KH.

Also just because the child is female doesn't mean that she cannot at all be the KH. Ghanima and Alia both had the ancestral memories of their paternal aswell as as their maternal ancestors. If the KH means seeing into both paths at once, then they are it. They may not be the true KH but they fit the description.

Basicially the point im gently trying to introduce is that the daughter:

A) Wouldn't be used by the BG

B) Couldn't be used by the BG

C) Was of no use to the BG

That is when it comes down to the BREEDING SCHEME. That is the discussion we were having until just now. If your saying if she be any genetic value at all, yes she would, there is no debating that. If your only talking about the genetic value of Feyd's daugher and not her place in the BREEDING SCHEME, say so. Say what you mean, if you want to discuss the possibilities, sure, I've done that. I've told you what I think, if you think I'm wrong, please tell me why and give some proof as I have done.

What I am saying is that their can be only one possibilty. You can quote me on that.  8)

[Andrew]

I thought the very end product was to be Jessica's daughter she was supposed to have and Feyd. The daughter and Feyd were to have a boy that was supposed to be a KH.

[Scott]

Supposedly that union between Feyd and Jessica's daughter would produced the KH, but since that never happened and Paul was born instead of a daughter, it cuts the scheme short. Since the two bloodlines cannot mingle together (which is what the scheme was going for) it just ends.

Unless Paul and Feyd can get together and make a baby (hey I can dream can't I?), they're it.

[Dondo]

Andrew is right.

In the grand plan, Jessica was to have had a daughter, the daughter was to become a Bene Gesserit, and she was to breed with Feyd. The spawn of these 2 was expected to be the KH.

Since Jessica's breeding partner Leto died, the Bene Gesserit breeding program was broken at that time of his death, since Jessica didn't bear the daughter the breeding program required.

Since the Bene Gesserit miscalculated and Paul was the KH a generation earlier than they expected, could it also have been possible that Feyd also had the capability to be a KH? Probably not - it seems to me that the extraordinary circumstances of Paul's life on Arakkis were what pushed those abilities forward.