what is wrong with us?

[Emperor Harkonnen]

What is acctually wrong with us Europeans?

We always critisize ourselves. Our history only consists of dishounesty, murder and treachery. This is what we learn. do you guys believe this is true?

[Wolf]

Hey, us Americans learn the exact opposite, and its a shock when you folks tell us otherwise.

[Acriku]

What's wrong about that? You can't change your history, you can't change your country's history, so why be ashamed?

[Filo]

It's not a european caracteristic, but a HUMAN one.

But we learn the opposite as well. Evil and good are not separated. The few people who are not as you said would be perhaps a tribe on a isolated island, used to live in peace, without politic or conquering religion.

[Caid Ivik]

It's critics of past, not today's world. Now we criticize mostly China, USA, India and other non-european countries. But I feel no shame. Those were other people with other interests. I have my responsibility only on me and now.

[Dante]

Filo's right, dishonesty and other underhanded tactics are human traits, rather than strictly European ones.

Europe simply happened to have political systems thoughout much of it's history that were able to easily exploit this. Monarchies and oligarchies lend themselves very well to cloak and dagger, as well as simple random violence (one of the reasons I like them). Other systems don't adapt quite so well.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

okay, didn't knew that everyone learn to critizise their history. thought it was only europeans.

though I think we should focus more upon the positive subjects we have in our history. such as culture in europe.

[Caid Ivik]

Wars are part of our culture. Will of challenge is what made us prospering. Whether it's good or not I can't say.

[Acriku]

okay, didn't knew that everyone learn to critizise their history. thought it was only europeans.

though I think we should focus more upon the positive subjects we have in our history. such as culture in europe.

It's not like we as Americans are taught that it was all happy flower times in the past (well, outside of kindergarten).

[Emperor Harkonnen]

yes I admire that of the americans. their patriotism. I like it. you should brag about the past of your country. For example was the conquering of land necessarily bad? you can say positive things about it too.

and war is a part of our culture, yes, but when I say culture I mean literature, architecture, music, etc. not war.

[Caid Ivik]

Well, I don't feel proudness for books like those of Rousseau, Hegel, Marx or Nietzsche... But as well I don't feel patriotism when I hear about that foreigners' work I like. USA is a mononational state, while Europe was always too differentiative. In USA you speak language everywhere, but today I was in Wien and it fascinated me: only 60 km from Bratislava and there was fully another style of life, million people speaking extremely different language etc.

[Anathema]

"this is what we learn"

If you feel that the bad things are emphasysed to much, go to a library and find stuff out. You'll find out that most of our history is bad.

I don't care as much wether the Roman emperors, the French kings or whatever were good or wicked, it's still fascinating to read about their achievements and not be bothered about the horrorible things they did.

Every chapter of history has its black pages. In school, I would learn about the Golden Age of the Netherlands when we were an impressive commercial and naval empire, but would only find out about the part the Netherlands played in the slave trade back then if I looked it up myself. Maybe you should do the same.

[Edric O]

Everything in history has a good side and an evil side. Sometimes one side completely overwhelms the other one, but such instances are rare. That's why history (especially recent history, which concerns us directly) is the source of so many disputes.

You may not like the fact that your teachers bring up the dark side of your history, but blind patriotism has been the source of so many wars, so much insanity and so much bloodshed that we must never allow it to take hold of us again.

[Caid Ivik]

But blind hatred or damnation has same effects. I would say, even worse.

[Edric O]

I've never heard of a war being started or even a single murder being commited in the name of "anti-patriotism".

[Caid Ivik]

Really? I thought you were better educated in history of national liberation movements...

[Emperor Harkonnen]

is really most of the history of europeans bad? I think that is something you have just got into your head because of what you teach. I do not think that europe was any worse than others.

and we learn that other cultures are "supreme" to our culture it seems to me. that we are far below others. why do we learn this? why can they not say the same amount of good things about our own culture as they do of those of other peoples?

[Edric O]

National liberation movements are far from being anti-patriotic - on the contrary, most of them are deeply patriotic/nationalistic. Why do you think they're called "national liberation movements"?

[Caid Ivik]

It's a big difference. Patriotism is different than nationalism. When ie cosacks rebelled against Poles it wasn't because they felt nostalgy for old Chazar. Or most historians consider our uprising in WW2 as a war against own state.

[Filo]

Historians remember in an easier way wars, genocids and murders of leaders, than peace and love acts, because it singles out harder a period and a people.

And the only peace and love sayings we historically remember are the ones which just reacted to violence and segregation.

Evil attracts more attention than good.

So History is rythmed by wars and bad acts.

A nation/people with never any problems, no war, etc... wouldn't need a big history book.

(anyway a nation like that would be quickly invaded!)

[alchemi2]

Taught History is generally about innovation and change, most of this comes about through radical action and wars unfoetunately man tends to be most productive through war and it's only after the war that those inovations are put to civillian uses.

[Filo]

Yes, exactly.

[Anathema]

is really most of the history of europeans bad? I think that is something you have just got into your head because of what you teach. I do not think that europe was any worse than others.

Well I never said that. It's still a fact the greatest crimes of history were committed mostly by Europeans, but only because we were put in a position where we could commit them. Somebody who doesn't have a gun won't shoot anybody.

[Caid Ivik]

Well, you say it because you know european history at most. Pol Pot annihilated a one fifth of Cambodja population and we haven't even mentioned it in school.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

no that is because it would be racism to critisize other cultures. that is the reply we would get here in Norway. everything is about racism, when there is something wrong with another culture.

I agree that the biggest crimes were commited by europeans, but the greatest achievments within technology and perhaps also culture was made by the europeans.