Did God really sacrifice his only son?

[GUNWOUNDS]

Akriku:

as i already said, Jesus' spirtual burden of EVERY MAN'S sin debt was far worse than His physical burden

the achievement of Jesus was bearing the sin debt for every person to ever exist.

[GUNWOUNDS]

And being God, that doesn't come across as a huge achievement. You're suggesting that God has weaknesses?

GUNWOUNDS, so what if he voluntarily went through with it? He's God for crying out loud, he can go through a million years of torture and act as if it didn't happen. Any almighty being can go through a couple days of torture, can't it?

well.... during the time he is being tortured... he is still in a human body with nerves and blood vessels... it still was painful.

there wasnt anything special about his body...if u cut him he would still bleed.

[TMA_1]

acriku, without any sympathy or empathy, you cannot understand this. WIthout an open mind you cannot fully explore these avenues. You are just arguing, and it leads to nowhere. Jesus was also man, dont forget that. This is where our connection comes into play.

open your heart and mind, then you might understand. you dont have to believe to understand, just dont be so hard of heart. This is what breeds hate, be careful. you are so negative that it breeds no positivity. open your heart to other opinions. Not in accepting them, but listening.

[Acriku]

GUNWOUNDS, I don't know if I'm getting through to you. People feel immense amounts of pain and humiliation all throughout history, and yet none of them are slapped with the "saviour" label. I see nothing remarkable or worthy of praise for Jesus to have gone through what he did (assuming he really did). Also, from what you're saying, Jesus had a low threshold of pain (otherwise the amount of pain he went through would be meaningless). But he's God? None of this is making much sense when you place Jesus as God.

[Navaros]

None of this is making much sense when you place Jesus as God.

the reason "none of it makes sense" to you is because you keep ignoring all the posts i make that address your questions

[Acriku]

I've been reading every post you made towards me Nav, don't worry.

[thomas]

And why should we be grateful? This is like thanking our government for relieving us from taxes that it imposed in the first place. It makes no sense to be grateful. This reminds me of 1984 by Orson Wells, where the proles would be grateful to Big Brother for lengthening the chocolate ration a little bit, where Big Brother was the one who shortened it in the first place.

um it's George Orwell (that's his penname) or Eric Blair (his real name)

[Acriku]

Well, I mess up authors every now and then, thanks :)

[thomas]

no prob I do it all the time.

[GUNWOUNDS]

GUNWOUNDS, I don't know if I'm getting through to you. People feel immense amounts of pain and humiliation all throughout history, and yet none of them are slapped with the "saviour" label. I see nothing remarkable or worthy of praise for Jesus to have gone through what he did (assuming he really did). Also, from what you're saying, Jesus had a low threshold of pain (otherwise the amount of pain he went through would be meaningless). But he's God? None of this is making much sense when you place Jesus as God.

i must not be getting thru to you either.....

[Caid Ivik]

Same arguments put rabbi ha-Nasi, why should have God came to this world as puny human just to get himself killed? But I'm sure that ie Herbert wanted once to become Muad'Dib, if you understand me...

[Acriku]

i must not be getting thru to you either.....  Jesus had a NORMAL human body just like the one your possessing right now.  You think because he was God.. he made himself a special body with no nerves or pain sensors?  No... he had a body like we have and whatever our pain threshold is.. he probably had something similar..

So what made him God then? If what you said is correct, Jesus wasn't God. And I already said that even if he has a normal human body, there is nothing miraculous and spectacular about what he went through.

However my point is that God didnt have to do that for us.... the fact that it was voluntary... means alot...

An all powerful God perfect,pure, and holy .. turning himself into a sweating, burping, farting, urinating, defecating, and physically limited human form..... then letting himself get manhandled by his own creation, beaten, and nailed to a cross..... that is the ultimate in humbling yourself.

Oh please, you're exaggerating how awful it is for God to be a human. Before, he's all-powerful and knowing, after he's still all-powerful and knowing, nothing has changed. He already knew what it was like to do what Jesus did, he already knew what infinite pain feels like, he already knew what infinite humiliation feels like, and he already knew exactly what would happen. To me, that doesn't seem spectacular for him to become Jesus and go through much less pain and humiliation.

Just put yourself in his shoes for a sec.... your this all powerful God... you can do anything,be anywhere, and yet you turn yourself into this limited human body... and let the worse possible things happen to you.  WHY???  WHY would you do that? For shits and giggles?  No... he did it to save us... because he loved us.

To save us from his doing? That's real nice of him  ::)

.... The persona of Zeus would have laughed at such an idea.  Reduce himself to human form and submit himself to humans?? hah! absurd. Which is the point i am trying to make.... You would think  the almighty God of the universe would have an attitude like Zeus..... yet he does not... and that makes him special.

To me that is the difference.

Actually, Zeus/Jove went down to walk amongst the humans multiple times if I remember correctly. But in any case, comparing Zeus and God is absurd.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Actually, Zeus/Jove went down to walk amongst the humans multiple times if I remember correctly. But in any case, comparing Zeus and God is absurd.

walking amongst humans and submitting to them is different.

And why is comparing Zeus and Jehovah absurd?

.....according to YOU they are both figments of Man's imagination.

Also... God may know what suffering and humiliation is but does that mean he is constantly experiencing those things? you are trying to make it seem like everything is trivial

[GUNWOUNDS]

To save us from his doing? That's real nice of him

[Navaros]

i understand the signifigance Jesus' sacrifice - unlike Akriku

what *I* do not understand is why God did not just make Adam and Eve so that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to sin.

[GUNWOUNDS]

i understand the signifigance Jesus' sacrifice - unlike Akriku

what *I* do not understand is why God did not just make Adam and Eve so that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to sin.

[Navaros]

the problem i have with that is:  why am *I* to blame for the sins of my fathers?

that is not fair

the Bible on one hand teaches that an individual is only responsible for his own actions or inactions

but on the other hand, ALL humans are F'ed up BY DEFAULT as a result of the mistakes of their fathers.

because Adam and Eve chose to sin, everyone to come after suffered.  at the point of Orginal Sin - the perfect gene pool immediately became corrupt, our perfect human bodies became frail easily-destroyed shells, and every human to come afterward had NO CHOICE about having a corrupt soul ("every man is born in sin"). 

if EVERY HUMAN was given the SAME CHOICE that Adam had; then i would not take issue with God.  but since God holds all descendants of Adam responsible for *his* choice - that's real messed up IMO

[GUNWOUNDS]

the problem i have with that is:

[Navaros]

basically right now... we have the same exact choice Adam and Eve had... follow God or dont follow him.

it's not the same choice because Adam and Eve had no-inbuilt need to sin - no inbuilt GUARANTEE that they would sin - whereas all humans to come after do have that inbuilt need to & guarantee that they will sin (except for Jesus).

[GUNWOUNDS]

it's not the same choice because Adam and Eve had no-inbuilt need to sin - no inbuilt GUARANTEE that they would sin - whereas all humans to come after do have that inbuilt need to & guarantee that they will sin (except for Jesus).

[Caid Ivik]

Well, let's look on it by mystical speculation. According to Bible we can say that yet in Noe's generation people lived about six-times longer than nowadays. Adam lost only glory, but remained as some superior patriarch. One sin (well, we can't say sin, only a short moment of disobeyance) wouldn't damn him. Damnation came, when his children familiarized with sin, so he sent the flood and thus erniedrigt us. Maybe because we live so short now we do less evil...

[GUNWOUNDS]

Maybe because we live so short now we do less evil...

Could you imagine

[Dante]

By approximately 2015, I think, it is calculated that old people will outnumber the young for the first time in history (whether religious or scientific). This isn't a good thing. Perhaps we're still living too long.

[Caid Ivik]

Maybe because we can prolong life, but not ACTIVE life.

[Edric O]

I'll give you my answer on the original questions:

a) God didn't sacrifice Jesus, he provided a way for him to return to heaven and become one again;

Just because someone was ressurected, that doesn't mean he didn't die. This applies to a human being as well as the Son of God. The experience of death (and all the pain associated with it) wasn't negated by the ressurection.

b) he also didn't because he would be sacrificing himself.  If he did that, he would cease to exist (hence the term, "sacrifice");

In this case, "sacrificing" means enduring tremendous pain for the sake of another, not ceasing to exist. Since a spirit is eternal, Jesus never ceased to exist.

c) even if he did, didn't he create a simple scapegoat for all of humanity?  That's not really justice.

Of course not - but that's exactly the point. God decided to give us an "easy way out" as an act of love.