Dune is the Past

[TMA_1]

I have been rereading one of my favorite books called "the crystal cave". It is a fictional account taking in the real history of ancient england, it is about merlin, trying to explain by physical means all that happened at the time. Anyways I notice that those kings that were very superstitious and into the supernatural always had in their courts soothsayers and other mages.

Even in ancient times you had like in persia the magi, wise men who studied the astrological arts, as well as other mantic ones.

It seems like in DUne you have the emperor with the same court of wise men, mentats, military leaders and so on in the court room with the emperor, as well as some bene gesserit, one being the truthsayer.

It looks just like certain courts in ancient times, but instead of magic, or spiritual things, it is all explained.

Dune is like an ancient universe, but where all the magic is either technological, or is simply physically explained. Anybody notice this?

That is why I like Lynch's Dune in the beginning when it shows the corrino court with the emperor.

[Khan]

I agree that a lot of the imagery in Dune is very archaic. It is almost like a feudal system but lords are appointed planets instead of just strips of land. Also, I never thought of mentats and so on as like the old advisors to the Kings before, but now that you mention it I can see what you mean. Also, I seem to remember Duke Leto saying that 'There is a place for everyone, and everyone is in their place.' or something to that effect, which is very much like the rigid structure of the Middle Ages.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

I also believe this is correct. besides, houses are some kind of english clans aren't they?

the king rules all the houses of england, as the emperor rules all the houses of the universe.

but still dune is not past, because there was no real magic during the middle ages ;)

[Vanguard3000]

I agree, TMA, and I think you're spot-on with the Kaitain scene in Lynch's Dune.  I've always thought it was neat how you had the Emperor lounging in his throne of gold, with his Noukkers, princesses, troubadors, and of course, a Truthsayer.

Khan:  It's a quote regarding the Feudal system of the Imperium,  called the Faufreluches.  I believe the exact quote is "a place for every man, and every man in his place."

[Colonel_Worf]

I have noticed this. Dune is really very medieval. It's an excellent blend of that and Science-Fiction.

[Mahdi]

One of my favourite books as well.  Stewarts Merlin trilogy is fantastic.

The Wicked Day is not nearly as good, but has the ebst ending I have ever read in Arthurian Literature.

The Prince and the Pilgrim just blew.

Btw, for those of you who have not read the book don't get the wrong impression, it is a much more realistic approach to the Arthurian Legends, with practical explanations for the conception of Arthur and the ommision of Lancelot like TMA said, but it is still fairly magical, with Merlin still being a prophet, being led to do what he does by an unknown God.  Much more "realistic" magic is used, as the only magic mentioned besides his prophecies is his ability to start and control fire, although other powers are implied, especially in the final book of the trilogy.

Ancient England is also a bit of a misnomer as it takes place way before the Norman invasions, before there is even such a thing as England but only about 1600 years ago, shortly after the Roman legions left Britain.  The setting is also Wales or Brittany for the most part.

If you are interested in other Arthurian literature TMA, check out the King Arthur thread posted a month or so ago.  It includes a partial list of the stories I have read.  Since then I've another couple that should be added to it, and dug up the title of another I read but could not remember at the time.

[TMA_1]

actually I am, I have only read so far the crystal cave, which is absolutely wonderful. I really love the friendship between merlin and ambrosius the father. I jsut all around loved it, and it took a view point of what could have been. Though you are right he did have prophesies, especially in the crystal cave, cool place.lol I also love the old man that taught merlin.

Ill check out that thread, sorry for really being generic about the info of "the crystal cave", I just didnt htink anybody read it, wonderful that you did! great book, I have started on the second one.

[Terror]

In the making of of FH's Dune it is mentioned as well that Dune is actually a medieval like story set in space. I sometimes don't know what to think of it. It is nice, yet it is also kind of dumb as sci fi and history are two things that don't realy fit realisically together.

[Filo]

Running on this thread, I recommend to those who don't know yet, the excellent "Amber Series" by Roger Zelazny, a ten-book series written in two five-book chronicles.

More info on:  http://zelazny.corrupt.net/amber.html[attachment archived by Gobalopper]

[Leto le Juste]

I agree : Dune is a medieval universe. According to me there are 2 reasons.

First, the story forces it. After the Butlerian Jihad, mens who fighted the Machines and leaded the free men caught power and decided to keep it. Furthermore it is a good system to avoid a come back of "new Titans".

Second, thanks to the creation of Space Guild, the universe became a very huge thing and democracy would have been unable to complete targets like security. Furthermore decisions which have to be quickly taken can't be taken under democracy where 10 000 billions (at least) humans live.

There is a third point: Herbert wants to experiment an old system called "despotisme

[Caid Ivik]

Science fiction isn't ment to be in future. As well as fantasy isn't only of past. If there would be a sequel to Lord of the Rings, where will Melkor teach orcs how to make rifles and then they will develop battlemechs with nuclear engines to carry them, it would be a science fiction. But if those mechs will be powered by some interdimensional divine power and rifles will fire with enchanted sand as gunpowder, it would be a fantasy. As well if Dune would end up with demons summoned to Tleilaxu's bidding (and reading the prequels I don't doubt KJA will put such things into it...), it would become a fantasy.

[Filo]

That's true.

Besides, limits between sci fi and fantasy could be a good topic to debate.

[Caid Ivik]

Has anybody here read Wooden Spaceships trilogy by Bob Shaw? It's about a feudal kingdom, where metal is replaced by very powerful wood from brakk trees. Typical late medieval enviroment on a twin planet. Because of beings named "pterts" they had to fly with baloons to the second one, as their atmospheres were merged. Shaw wasn't best physician, that's for sure, but it was one of the most original sci-fi books I've ever read.

[AeonGrey]

I've just started my third reading of Dune, and I noticed this word "faufreluches" that kept popping up.  It didn't occur to me to look in the glossary in the back of the damn book, so I was left sitting there going "what in the name of high school football are faufreluches".  Anyway, I typed it into yahoo and got this page:

http://www.dune3.net/guides/protocol.txt

It's a text file on a website for a MUSH (online text-based role playing thingy) called Dune III.  It really explains a lot about the faufreluches system.  I posed this here because it is VERY much like a feudal system.  I myself have never been bothered by the fact that the Dune Universe was feudal.  I think the reason Frank put the Duniverse so far in the future was so that it would just seem like that much more of a universe unto itself.  And besides, who knows how people will be living (if at all ;-)) 24,000+ years in the future?

[Filo]

Humanity starts badly to survive a so long time. We are the parasites of the earth, as worms in an apple. Even if we could stop at now to kill the planet, our children's children's children's children haven't many chances to survive.

[AeonGrey]

Humanity starts badly to survive a so long time. We are the parasites of the earth, as worms in an apple. Even if we could stop at now to kill the planet, our children's children's children's children haven't many chances to survive.

Filo, read the book Ishmael by Daniel Quinn.  I promise you that based on what you just said, you will love it.

[jav barri]

i know a bit about arthur being from england and Arthur was actually a real man, he was a warlord fighting against the saxons (before feudal times), then the story got took over to france and all the merlin stuff was added, then it came back here (apparantly one of the reasons tolkien wrote lotr is because england didnt really have any myths of its own), my friends got a series of books by bernard cornwell called the warlord chronicles based on the original arthur stories havnt read them yet but he says theyre pretty good. I also saw something about shia muslims from iraq on the bbc about the recent bombing how they celebrated a prophet who lead them trying to find a home after being exiled from so many places, that reminded me alot of the fremen, iraq being covered in desert too, and spice in the desert and oil in the desert both need for travel and one of the main structures in our and dune society. I agree with aeon grey about putting dune so far in the future, look at 2001 a.d. its 2004 and i aint seen no space babies or black rectangles. sorry i havn't posted anything for ages my conections been down. I don't actually play dune2k i just like the topics you come up with, but dune 2 on the amiga

[Mahdi]

Sicen this isn't an Arthur thread I won't go into it, but I'm afriad you've got quite a bit of un-learning to do there Jav.  If you want to talk more about it, post a thread in general or msn me.  I'm far from an expert, but I know a lot more than the average fella.

[jav barri]

more to learn about what? i did cover alot of topics, if you mean the stuff about arthur well i got it from quite a good source my friends mums a professor of medieval liturature.

[Mahdi]

Check your IM.

[Filo]

Filo, read the book Ishmael by Daniel Quinn.

[Filo]

Not still found yet. Seems to be not current in french...

[AeonGrey]

Not still found yet. Seems to be not current in french...

I assume then that you live in France?  Do you need it in French?  You could always order an English copy if you can read English well enough.  I'd be happy to help you out, maybe get one and send it to you.  Like I said, based on what you said, I think you'd like the book a lot.  Hell, anyone else here for that matter may enjoy it.  It's a great book.

[AeonGrey]

Not still found yet. Seems to be not current in french...

tadah!

http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/2290317012/402-3670021-2629767

[Filo]

Tadah! Thank you Aeon, I just ordered it!

Have you seen there's a sequel?

My turn now to recommand you ANTS by Bernard Werber.