PRISON

[JOEBIALEK]

"Most people who are in the prison system will get out, they will be somebody’s neighbor and they will have gained nothing from their time in prison except the knowledge that “it’s you or me” because that’s the way it is in our prisons. They have removed most of the educational programs from our prisons because the tax payers don’t want to throw away good money on worthless criminals. They have no counseling, nothing to help them change whatever it was that got them where they are in the first place. Is this what we really want?" "Misconceptions About Prison Life" By Jeanette Doil

The Eighth Amendment of The Bill of Rights for the Constitution of the United States: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." The very way prisons are operated today is a clear violation of this amendment.

Prison life today is the complete forfeiture of freedom for a certain period of time; sometimes the remaining days of one's life. Both violent and non-violent people are mixed together in the prison population which violates the Eighth Amendment because the potentiality for violence against non-violent offenders strongly exists. Furthermore, given the present conditions, those given life sentences without the possibility of parol would be better off if given the option of execution by the method of their choosing. But what about those with the chance of eventually leaving prison and returning to society?

One of the things strongly lacking in prison today is personal discipline; self imposed discipline. This is the discipline that makes you try harder and work more intensely then you ever thought you could. Sadly, prisoners lack both the incentive and ability to develop this themselves. Consequently, discipline needs to come from outside themselves. The best source of external discipline comes from United States Marine Corps boot-camp seargants. Prisoners need to be treated the same as new recruits when they step off the bus into the prison yard for the first time. It needs to be made clear that until they are released, the "system" will not allow them to continue in their present state of disorder. Once the prisoner accepts their new found source of discipline, they may "graduate" to learning a trade or completing an education. Various forms of counselling must also be provided in order to keep them focused on their path to rehabilitation. The right of the prisoners to peaceably assemble must be forfeited in order to prevent the formation of groups detrimental to the process. This would also prevent the smuggling of drugs into the prison as the corrupt corrections officer would no longer have a "market". The problem with prisons today is that they only serve to foster a continuation of the human condition that leads to incarceration. With all this discussion and funding of homeland security, it would seem logical to start with America's prisons as a means of improving the safety and security of every United States citizen.

[thomas]

"you do the crime, you pay the time"

[Dante]

Oh please...

Military prisons or even 'boot camps' for inmates are a waste of space, time and money. But then, I've never liked the military anyway... Too much brainwashing. No offence, but as far as I can see, especially in America. Remainds me of nazist militaristic propaganda...

Prevention is better than any other method. How best to keep criminals out of prison? Don't give them a reason to commit crime in the first place! What you need is better public services, a way to make more jobs, less bureucracy and red tape... Happy people don't commit crime.

The circumlocution regarding 'discipline'... well that's just rubbish. Humans work by their own rules. Disciplined not to break laws just seems like a longer way of saying 'brainwashed' to me. If you want someone to behave in a certain way, and they refuse to do it themself, then tough. That's it. There is no changing them short of brainwashing.

As for prisons... Right now they serve a useful purpose. To detain those who have a reason to commit crime until they no longer have a reason. If the social welfare reforms I mentioned were brought into force then there would be a significant drop in the requirment for prisons, though I'm not saying it would go away altogether. Then the only reason for prisons would be temporary storage facilities.

Of course if I had my way then everything would change. Murder would be a 50-year sentance... Cruelty to animals would earn you 70 years in a small hole with only the rusty nails, broken glass and muck for company... If I was feeling kind. Manslaughter would be treated leniently... as would other minor or accidental crimes. Rape would probably earn a roasting over an open fire...

As you can see, I'm not very well-disposed towards humans.

[shygirl4]

criminals should be striped naked and thrashed with a stick , then paraded through the town where they live.

I dont think they would be to keen to commit petty crime again. and the tax payer wouldnt have to fund there life of luxuary while in prison.

shy ::)

[Cyborg]

Actually, that would be a good way to make them stop doing those things, but it isn't allowed.

[Acriku]

I believe that better and more prison facilities are beneficial to both the safety of the prisoners, and the guards...But that's as far as I would go to do suggest any reform.

A clear definition of "cruel and unusual punishment" is never given, so there is never a clear violation of such. Keep that in mind at all times.

[Dante]

"Cruel and unusual punishment" is perhaps the only thing that I would allow if I made the rules...

[Egeides]

I think that there is nothing cruel about using psychological ways since they don't look as gory. Like Greenpeace when it gets weird: the argument for not killing a seal is because it's cute (fishes are less cute even if a seal eats a ton/day or something). Forcing someone to stay awaken with a spotlight for days while playing repetitive and loud music all along seems ok if it is to get some results. It should help the prisoner to not hurt society anymore, and exausting the prisoner with unfriendly question sessions seems good against enemies.

*notices a tone of irony*

Scytale:

"you do the crime, you pay the time"

Is this a dogma?

I propose "you do the dishes, you pay the cook" to give it company :D

[thomas]

er yours didn't make sense, it means if you commit a crime you will reseve punishment

[Egeides]

Yes, but you said it as a dogma, pretty much the same way someone would say "If you kill, you shall be killed. If you steel, someone shall take your money. If you hit, you shall be hit." Etc.

There should be a reason why you get prison for a crime. And depending on this reason (and the objectives you have behind prison), prison can be not the best way for example. No dogmas here.

[Dante]

Dogma is always a bad thing.

[nemafakei]

"thrashed with a stick"

Agreed for certain violent crimes, but for most crimes, this is not really beneficial.

[thomas]

lol I didn't mean that phrase as a dogma to be honest, It's a common phrase used here, and it explains my point, if you break the law you will (most likely unless you're super rich or have extroardenary lawyers) recieve Jail time, get it?

anyways I think our prisons do need reform but the general beleif that max-security prison is horrible is bull shit, It's Hell.

Min. security prisons are still fairly bad butanyways most of the people in prison belong there and deserve their punishment.

[Egeides]

Scytale, what do you mean by "deserve" their punishment? Under the same logic, wouldn't they deserve eye for eye, teeth for teeth?

And if it is better for the society to make something else than put them in the actual prisons, as some studies suggest, should they be put in prison because they deserve it, even if it harms so society and makes more people killed/raped/else?

[Acriku]

Can you explain your last question Egeides, it sounds like you're saying that putting rapists and murderers in jail causes more rapes and murders.

[Egeides]

I do not exactly propose to let them free ;)

Some studies from the northern europe countries and Canada suggest that some adaptation program give more bang for the buck in term of criminalization than the present prison programs. Also, a direct correlation was done in Canada between banishing the death penalty and lowering the criminality, while some are saying "they killed, so they owe us their lives".

Basically, some studies are saying that some adaptation programs get better results and that prisons even tend to make things worst in certain cases.

[Acriku]

As I said before, Canada is an entirely different culture, so does it follow that it will happen in America? No.

[Inoculator9]

Not really Acriku. They speak French in some areas, and some are neat freaks, but they aren't wildly different from Americanms. Save rednecks, NRA members, Texans, and all that nonsense, lol :P But unfortunately that accounts for a lot :P So... who knows.

[Egeides]

Acriku, it's not about "in my country it's like thi, in yours it's like that". The paths that are taken may be different, we are still talking about humans.

Personally, I see NO pressure to "be like Canadians are or are suppose to be". I'm a Canadian, and if anyone believes I don't fit in this scheme, he's the one that should change his definition of Canadian. Same for Americans: they're not glued anywhere, they'll see what they believe is the best. Now, back to the discussion :P

[shygirl4]

hi Egeides

is English your second language , just curious.

shy ::)

[Acriku]

Acriku, it's not about "in my country it's like thi, in yours it's like that". The paths that are taken may be different, we are still talking about humans.

Yes of course we are all humans, but humans act differently in each culture. We are all brought up with different experiences, sometimes experienced as a country, sometimes as a culture. It is safe to say that Canadian culture and American culture is not the same, and thus it does not follow that what works in Canada will work in America.

[Egeides]

shygirl: Yes, it's my second language :)

Acriku:

I agree that what is applied somewhere may not work somewhere else but only to the extent of the differences that are concerned. I do not believe that humans are so different from a culture to another that prison will make them more violent in one case, and less in the other. If so, I believe it would be a very particular exception with specific reasons.

[Acriku]

I was actually referring to the death penalty...

[Egeides]

Me too ;D

My exemple wasn't valid only for one thing but was a general case.

[Acriku]

Who says they have to be more violent? I'm sure many people would kill someone if they could, and with no consequences, but for them to do it doesn't make them more violent, it just makes them more opportunistic. Also, referring to Canada's lowering of crime, how does it make sense that when you abolish the worst punishment, people are less inclined to commit a crime? Also, it can't be completely sure as to whether or not the lowering of crime is actually due to the abolishment of the death penalty, as society is more complex than that.