Vegetarianism

[alchemi2]

it has been proveb the plants react to out side influence and change and adapt to their enviroment, just because the internal make up is different to ours dont mean there not sentient!

rig a plant to an occilascope and introduce heat/ cold to it bruise a leaf or gentle stroke diffrent electro reading are given to each stimulus.

the most basic part of life is procreation without it your speices die all things need to procreate.

if plants arent aware of anything how come so much of their procreation depends on outside influences wind, insects, animals etc

why produce food for certain animals to eat and spread your seed if you are unawre of there existance why produce toxin or thorns to defend yourself against predators if you arent aware.

thing about it you dont have to accept it but at least think about it. ::)

[Caid Ivik]

Even Aristoteles, two and half millenia before, was able to find out that plants feel nothing. Lack of nerve system causes these beings feel nothing, but also grow quicker than animals and humans. Lack of defence is balanced by improved regeneration.

[Acriku]

it has been proveb the plants react to out side influence and change and adapt to their enviroment, just because the internal make up is different to ours dont mean there not sentient!

rig a plant to an occilascope and introduce heat/ cold to it bruise a leaf or gentle stroke diffrent electro reading are given to each stimulus.

the most basic part of life is procreation without it your speices die all things need to procreate.

if plants arent aware of anything how come so much of their procreation depends on outside influences wind, insects, animals etc

why produce food for certain animals to eat and spread your seed if you are unawre of there existance why produce toxin or thorns to defend yourself against predators if you arent aware.

thing about it you dont have to accept it but at least think about it. ::)

Alchemi, you can not possible be saying that because plants react to light that they can feel pain. Outside influences like wind, insects, and animals are completely irrelevant. You're confusing nerve reactions with light-dependent and light-independent reactions.

[Timenn]

Acriku, you missed my point when I was saying that you don't really need a nerve system to feel pain.

What I meant was that there can be more types of feeling pain then just through a nerve system. It's like having different ways in building a house. 2 Houses can look totally different, other materials used, other design, 1 is in flat, while the other is underground. But both are houses.

[Caid Ivik]

Do you think that plant can feel an emotional pain?

[Acriku]

Sure you can build more than one kind of house. But pain circles around having a nervous system, and a brain, because you need a nervous system to detect, travel, and input, and a brain to interpret. It doesn't make sense to me if you have neither a nervous system or a brain. Could you explain how a plant can feel pain without having a brain or nervous system? Leave out any analogies because they do not explain a thing.

[alchemi2]

i think either i didnt make myself clear or else you missing the point.

i wasnt talking about nerve induced pain to the brain which animals have obviously plants are made diffrently.

if all farm animals were cared for in ideal conditions and humanely killed without pain, are you then saying all vegitarians would eat meat?

Most object to eating meat because animals are aware of their enviroment and are considered in someways sentient.

my point is that plants too are aware of their enviroment, habitat. so why is this moral objection for meat not given to plants!

Is it because they have no voice or their blood is diffrent to ours, if you dont eat meat out of a moralistic stand point then surely you should apply that moral to all life or are you saying plants are not alive?

personally i eat both due to the fact im an omnivore as evolution made me but then i dont have any moral quarms about eating anything that is currently available for me to eat.

On the earlair point about farm animals.

If they werent kept for food then they wouldnt be around as there would be no use for them, they would be considered pest and killed after all what farmer is gonna allow them to destroy his much needed crops.

but i suppose some will still argue that dying in the wild is better than dying in captivity.

[Timenn]

Oke, plants don't have to feel pain the way we do, like feeling something and saying "ouch" But plants can detect that they are hurt. For example when you make a cut in them, all kinds of fluids come out. The plant misses those valuable fluids then, and start to "feel" uncomfortable (or what you want to name it) because it doesn't get all the fluids it wasnts in their leafs (or somewhere else)

And because of the massive meat industry, there are way too much cattle animals. But you don't have to kill them all when you reduce the industry somehow, you can stop forcing breeding them, and the numbers will reduce in time.

It's ok to eat meat and vegetables (etc.) to me. But like you said, alchemi2, keep eating what is availabe to you at the moment. So don't expect meat every day.

[Acriku]

i wasnt talking about nerve induced pain to the brain which animals have obviously plants are made diffrently.

That's all pain is, nerves and a brain. You haven't explained how a plant could feel pain.

if all farm animals were cared for in ideal conditions and humanely killed without pain, are you then saying all vegitarians would eat meat?

Obviously not, since some hold it as evil, etc, but they simply don't have a valid reason for not eating meat. But it's their choice.

Most object to eating meat because animals are aware of their enviroment and are considered in someways sentient.

my point is that plants too are aware of their enviroment, habitat. so why is this moral objection for meat not given to plants!

How can a brainless plant be aware of its surroundings? You've been watching Alice in Wonderland too many times.

Is it because they have no voice or their blood is diffrent to ours, if you dont eat meat out of a moralistic stand point then surely you should apply that moral to all life or are you saying plants are not alive?

Living does not infer sentience. You need a brain, or an equivalent of one, to be "aware." Explain how a plant is sentient.

[Danuary]

Acriku what you are saying is that just because a car doesn't have legs it can't move, or that its impossible to get inside a house with a sliding door instead of a swinging one. just because it doesn't have a nervous system like we do doesn't mean that it has no way to feel pain, most people have come up with a higher thinking practice then that because it doesn't have X doesn't mean it can't do Y there are other ways to do things say we want a better solution to a problem we create Z its not the same but it works just as well.

[Acriku]

You know, you guys can make up analogies to houses, cars, and bicycles, all day, but when it comes to the nervous system they all fail. It isn't as simple as the analogies you described. Instead of using your creativity to make analogies, explain how a plant can feel pain!

[Danuary]

Explain why it couldn't, and don't say "because it has no nervous system"

[nemafakei]

Because there exists no method by which it may detect the destruction of its components. This is essentially what pain reception is.

[Anathema]

Timenn, that is purely a chemical reactions or a chain thereof. At best you could describe it as a reflex, no awareness involved.

[Timenn]

Exactly my point. But then I'm saying that humans detecting pain is also only a small electric signal, which is send to a big complex of many electric signals.

In the depths of molecules, we are all the same at the end.

[Sneakgab]

Plant's are ''aware'' of their enviroments in some ways, through detection (plants are probably capable of detecting atleast a few things), which is why plant's grow certain things at certain times and even secrete fluids. Their are plants that can sense touch (carnivorous plants, not all of which consume insects in a purely mechanical way to my knowledge, unless I'm mistaken in which case I apologize). Detection = feelings = resultingly feeling need to do something. Essentially, all base human feelings (pain, irritation, randyness) are just a ''need'' to do something. You could say that plants also sometimes feel the ''need'' to do something.

However, I'm with Acriku on this one, without a brain their's no one a plant could ''feel'' such ''needs''. You could say that a plant has a nervous system of sorts, system z as such, but it has no brain. The fore-mentioned reactions are all reactions controlled by ''system z''(the ''other'' way of feeling things reffered to by a fore-mentioned poster). The most you could say is that a nervous system in itself could almost be like a smaller form of something brain-like, but that's about it. Therefore even if a plant has this ''system z'', it could only possibly be something remotely sentient-like

[Acriku]

Exactly my point. But then I'm saying that humans detecting pain is also only a small electric signal, which is send to a big complex of many electric signals.

In the depths of molecules, we are all the same at the end.

Plants do not have nerve synapses, or anything like it. So again, can you tell me how a plant can feel pain?

Plant's are ''aware'' of their enviroments in some ways, through detection (plants are probably capable of detecting atleast a few things), which is why plant's grow certain things at certain times and even secrete fluids. Their are plants that can sense touch (carnivorous plants, not all of which consume insects in a purely mechanical way to my knowledge, unless I'm mistaken in which case I apologize). Detection = feelings = resultingly feeling need to do something. Essentially, all base human feelings (pain, irritation, randyness) are just a ''need'' to do something. You could say that plants also sometimes feel the ''need'' to do something.

You're confusing processes with actual feeling and thought-making. A flower blooms during Spring, does it now feel the need to bloom? Feeling any need requires a brain, does it not? Last time I checked, a flower does not have a brain. Now, some of us here have been watching Disney movies a little too much, and that's okay, but let's get real.

[alchemi2]

Thought provoking discussion aint it!

procreation is basic to all life, the base instict survial by repoduction.

If plants are totally unaware. Then why have a reproductive system that relies on other things. the wind, insects and mammals. If you dont know they exist why develop to use them?

Stinging nettles are avoided by most animals due to the venom except for a certain caterpillar that has adapted to use that venom. there is another plant that matches the nettle exactly apart from the venom relying on its appears as a defence. this raise 2 points. 1 if not aware of animals why the defence and 2 how does one know about the other and emulate it.

There is a bush in south america which grows hollow branchs and chambers that a particularly nasty ant lives in the plant provides shelter and food the ant provide protection symbyotic relationship.

There are thousands of such examples of this. most fruit only serves the purpose of attracting animals to eat it and the seeds there in. the seeds are not disolved inside but pass out in a ball of fertile shit to increase chances of survival.

All of this without any awareness of their enviroment, i think not.

no brain as we define it or nervous system i accept but what latent knowledge do plants pocess?

human babies are born and can swim without being taught due to latent genetic knowledge.

Blood is only a composition of chemicals as is sap.

leaves and stems move towards light or away from it as needed. you walk due to impulse from you brain which cause muscles etc to perform cetain reactions.

if injured you send chemicals to the injured area without having to think through the process. plants react to damage in the same way and isolate infections.

i firmly belive plants have an awareness and if accept awareness then you can see that there is no longer the hugh gulf between flora and fauna.

im not comparing plants to inanimate objects im sure accept that plants are alive!

no one is saying plants are human but the neither are cattle.

[nemafakei]

Yes, plants can react to conditions like sunlight, and grow via auxins. However, the conditions for reacting to damage are exclusively local. That is to say, if you cut off a branch from a tree, if anything could possibly have feelings, only the cells around the cut would 'feel' anything; they would be essentially 'clotting' the area. Some of the rest of the plant might 'feel' a bit hungry later since it's lost a number of photosynthesising leaves, but that's about it as far as 'pain' distribution goes.

[Acriku]

Define "feel" exactly, is it when a reaction takes place because of the separation?

[alchemi2]

hey dont do a nav and only answer one point how do you explain away the other issues raised? or are you just choosing to ignore those! >:(

[Terror]

Plants grow, that's the only thing they can do. Plants don't "feel" anything. Yes they bleed and regenerate, in their own green way but that is a natural reaction of everything that lives.

In the case of animals. I live on a farm and i read a lot of letters from city folk and they always bash on the farmers that we do not treat them well bladiblah. Well i'll tell you this, IF YOU PEOPLE DON'T EAT SO MUCH MEAT WE DON'T NEED THIS AMOUNT OF CATTLE AND CAN GIVE THEM MORE SPACE!. Besides that, animals on farms don't actually feel bad at all. In fact (we've even tested this) cows and pigs (don't know about chickens) live rather the way they do it now, as to live in the free nature. In the beginning they are anxious to go outside, into the wide world but it does nto take long until they find out that life is much more relaxing and pleasing inside. In our barn the cows can eat without having to search for food (and eating is easier as it has already been prepared). The food is better, their "beds" are much more comfortable, they can get drinks very easy, they are kept warm in the winter, and cool in the summer.. and ofcourse the roof keeps them dry.

Farmers like us do care a lot for our animals, much more than you might think. My father has invested thousands of euro's and many many hours to save a cows life, and we neither like to send our cows to the butcher. The real criminals are the fools that try to "save" creatures by setting them free. I remember this group that set out a few thousand "nertsen" (dutch word). The chaos and damage that that caused was incredible. The nertsen immediately started hunting and killed lots of chickens and birds.... even some rare birds.

oh and another point, Timenn mentioned the fact of virusses that all the cattle in a 2 km radius are killed instead of vaccinated. You know why that happens? Because our export WANTS that from us. Do you think we want those animals to die? We too would've loved to see the cows and pigs been vaccinated, it does not even make the cow/pig uneatable. But because the foreign countries will no longer buy our meat, they killed them, and tried to stop the virus by killing all the others in the vicinity. (well statistically seen even that's better than just giving the virus it's way).

[Sneakgab]

''Quote:

Plant's are ''aware'' of their enviroments in some ways, through detection (plants are probably capable of detecting atleast a few things), which is why plant's grow certain things at certain times and even secrete fluids. Their are plants that can sense touch (carnivorous plants, not all of which consume insects in a purely mechanical way to my knowledge, unless I'm mistaken in which case I apologize). Detection = feelings = resultingly feeling need to do something. Essentially, all base human feelings (pain, irritation, randyness) are just a ''need'' to do something. You could say that plants also sometimes feel the ''need'' to do something.

You're confusing processes with actual feeling and thought-making. A flower blooms during Spring, does it now feel the need to bloom? Feeling any need requires a brain, does it not? Last time I checked, a flower does not have a brain. Now, some of us here have been watching Disney movies a little too much, and that's okay, but let's get real. ''

I told you, I'm with you Acriku, I only used what you qouted for my argument

''Yes, plants can react to conditions like sunlight, and grow via auxins. However, the conditions for reacting to damage are exclusively local. That is to say, if you cut off a branch from a tree, if anything could possibly have feelings, only the cells around the cut would 'feel' anything; they would be essentially 'clotting' the area.''

I'm pretty sure that's not true, their is probably no way a tree could clot certain places without sap from other parts of the tree. I suspect this because clotting in plants is not that disimalar as in humans and humans need thrombocytes from other places for a succesful clot... Although, plant cells being more rigid might be able to manage a ''localized'' clotting, come to think about it... not that I think plants are sentient anyway

'' Some of the rest of the plant might 'feel' a bit hungry later since it's lost a number of photosynthesising leaves, but that's about it as far as 'pain' distribution goes.

<|> ''

By some of the rest of the plant I assume you mean other parts of the plant> if this is what you're saying then you're actually hinting that plants might be sentient to a slight degree

''Plants grow, that's the only thing they can do. Plants don't "feel" anything. Yes they bleed and regenerate, in their own green way but that is a natural reaction of everything that lives.''

The thing is, you could say that everything is only a natural reaction, just that reactions in humans are hundreds of times more complex. Think about, you're past experience affect ''you'' (''you'' being a bundle of atoms possibly making up you're personality,e.t.c) and you react by growing you're personality and self in certain ways.

The only thing that really makes humans sentient is that a body is greater than a sum of it's parts. Therefore what were made out of somehow provides sentience. With this in mind, you could say that certains animals are just as non-sentient as plants because they do not have a sufficient amount of brain cells,parts,e.t.c to achieve sentience, as unlikely as this may be

(just an idea)

One thing I find strange though, is that a starfish has no brain, yet it hunts shell-fish and attempts to avoid being devoured. You could say that is just an advanced plant... but perhaps most animals are simoply advanved plants?. I would say that any system of nerves and the like could prove to serve as nerve network, and plants certainly have nerves (Light receiving nerves,e.t.c), and it therefore certain parts of the plant can feel because they themselves are a nerve and they have a brain in the form of a nuecleus. However if you believe this then you also believe that every indivual cell in a body is alive and sentient, and this is probably not so. But plants seem to react to light, some plants move most of their body (for lack of a better word) to face sunlight. This would indicate some communication between cells which would basically be an extremely watered down nervous system. Afterall, many plant cells have pits so that their endoplasmic reticulum can can connect with endoplasmic reticulum from adjacent cells to allow for what must be some transfer of information (afterall, that is what the RA carry when using endoplasmic reticulum to transport themselves. However, this is just info transfer and does not involve transfer of feeling, which is of course what nuerons are for. Although plant nueron cells do exist (Or atleast some posters have claimed they do (Yes I know, brackets in brackets ;D)), there are, to my knowledge, are not connected to other nervous tissue in the plant ie: Light receiving nueron tissue in leafA is not connected to perhaps nuerons in the root (as unlikely as that may be) )

And so, I doubt that plants are sentient.

One thing though is that some people believe that forms of life have varying degrees of sentience... IE: a cow is less sentient than a human... which is why some people care little for slaughtered cows

I doubt you can have varying degrees of sentience, because as long as you are slightly self-aware, you are self aware no matter what you can and cannot feel...

But my point is, according to these people, it would be alright if a ''higher form of life/ ''more sentient'' form of life came down and ate all of us without caring much as we are not as sentient as they are,

It is disturbing that some people do not seem to notice such things about their thoughts :O

[Acriku]

If anybody is accepting that plants feel pain, are they willing to accept that bacteria and viri feel pain, as well? And that they may be sentient?

Sneak, I understand, and apologize for being too upfront.

[Alia Atreides]

I have thought about it myself but one it is quite a challenge, and two it could effect you seriously health wise if you were to stop all consumption at once of meat.

Meats have specfic proteins and enzyemes that we do not manurfacture ourselves and two if we were to take supplements would be harder to digest and break down.

I love beef I could never stop eating it for long, if you really want to stop with the beef. Chicken and Fish are very good source of protein. :)