Public Prayer

[Acriku]

I'd like to start a poll for Christians that adhere to the entire bible, asking: Do you pray in public?

For an example, at my school there is an announcement on the television (in a scrolling of many other announcements) that calls for people to join public praying at the flagpole.

You can say yes or no, and provide any supporting examples. Thanks :)

(Note: this isn't meant to be a trap, although some would think otherwise)

[Tio_Holtzmann]

Need to ask a few questions first <im a christian for the record>

when you say pray in public, how do you mean? like quietly to yourself, out loud by yourself, out loud in a group, quietly together in a group, indoors, outdoors, what? sorry just wanna know exactly what you mean so i know if i've any experience of it myself.

Is that thing in your school called See You At The Pole by any chance? I thought in the USA you weren't allowed pray in public places <forgive my ignorance if im totally off the mark>

[Acriku]

Preferably out loud, perhaps in a group - perhaps not, outdoors or indoors.

Yes it is, and it is constitutional to pray in public places. Anyone can pray whatever prayer in any public school, as long as it isn't disruptive and not while class is in session. You also can wear any religious affiliations as well in any public school - this all comes from the freedom of speech and expression. A public official (teacher, coach, etc) cannot require it, endorse it, etc, however. Only students.

[Tio_Holtzmann]

i can only think that i have prayed with people out loud as a group in like meetings and stuff, be they indoor or outdoor, not exactly where there were loads of other people milling about. so guess thats a no.

thanks for telling me bout the constitution, twas cool.

[ordos45]

Silently yes. (SYATP, are you still not over it?)

[Navaros]

American society starting going downhill right after they took the Lord's Prayer out of public schools

Canada did it about 20 years later, and likewise that is the same time when Canada's society started going downhill

now with no prayers in schools, North America is an immoral festering cesspool of slime.

if i felt like praying loudly in a public place, i would do so and if anyone tried to interfere with me then that person would be "Receivithing the LORD" shortly thereafter; in a manner of speaking (a la "Gangs of New York")

[Edric O]

Well, I pray in church. Does that count? :)

Seriously, though, you should tell us what kind of public places you had in mind. When I hear the phrase "in public", I immediately equate it with "on the street", or "in a park". And I definately haven't prayed in those kinds of places (what reason could I possibly have to pray on the street?).

[Babylon]

American society starting going downhill right after they took the Lord's Prayer out of public schools

Public School is a, like the word says, a public school. If you want to pray in school, go to a Christian school. Not all people that go to a public school are Christian. If you where obligated to pray, I think, it would be wrong.

(what reason could I possibly have to pray on the street?).

When you are stuck in the street with one foot and a big truck comes right for you and you can't predict if it can brake in time to not hit you ;)

[Egeides]

If I'm in public, I'll pray if I wish to but it wont show. I just always have in mind the religious zealots that are basing themselves on what it looks like instead of what it is: "How nice he is, he is praying"= has two hands aside and eyes closed, in which position I can think to killing someone if I wish or (as some politicians/ecclesiastics did) waiting for the time to pass...

I don't like to see religion or any correct-behavior-that-we-should-all-adhere-to being showed publicly, and I'll give you a real-life example:

It happened in Haiti. I was there as an observer with someone who was helping building some business. The woman that was directing on the field was showing herself as religious, hard-working person. There were some trouble into the business, and it was going to fall on this woman's head as mismanagement. What did she do? She organized and planified a meeting where me (only as spectator), some Canadians and mostly Haitians were. The woman wanted to show how much she was "victim", "hurt in her feeling", and mostly how much her honor was touched in a place where everyone knew eachother. Here's how started the meeting, where only her and her friends knew to that point what it was about:

"We're gonna start by a prayer, for all those on this Earth that were hurt and for my so good Lord..."

Basically, she started to show how good she was and how hard-working-for-her-Lord she was. My first reflex? "?!?.... trouble coming". It served on her side to rally to herself many believers against the "un-religious exterior" (=don't SHOW themselves as religious: me and the other person were espescially religious, but hardly anyone knew) that was coming for regular inspection/check.

See?! THIS is where in my opinion public I-have-a-perfect-behavior leads if we're not careful!

[Tio_Holtzmann]

i think praying out loud is ok if you maybe want to show people what xianity is about, but im not sure....jesus did say when you pray dont make a big show of it, but if youre not just praying to get attention....

may i ask you acriku what your feelings on SYATP are? and praying in public et al?

------

"now with no prayers in schools, North America is an immoral festering cesspool of slime."

in case you didnt notice nav the entire universe is an immoral festering cesspool of slime as a result of human beings in general, that's why jesus is gonna come back one day and get apocalyptic on our asses. tis a bit much to blame the decline of society on removing one prayer that not everyone adhered to anyway. maybe twas better to remove the prayer and stop some people being hypocritical by being made to say a prayer for a god they dont believe in....?

[ordos45]

Actually Babylon, US law dictates students are allowed to pray in school if it isn't disruptive.

Acriku, none of them showed up for SYATP on the day it was held at my school, but at least ten people each morning pray around the flagpole every other day of this year so far.

[Acriku]

i think praying out loud is ok if you maybe want to show people what xianity is about, but im not sure....jesus did say when you pray dont make a big show of it, but if youre not just praying to get attention....

That was actually my reason for posting this, to see if anybody was aware that such praying was so clearly forbidden against (unambiguous). I believe it is this:

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 6:5-8)"

It's surprising how many are not aware of these unambiguous verses.

may i ask you acriku what your feelings on SYATP are? and praying in public et al?

I really can't stop SYATP, but personally, if people are so insecure in their faith that they have to pray at school everyday, as if praying in churches and homes that are private was not enough, then they need to rethink their religion and faith. It wouldn't be the religion, just their amount of faith in their religion. I also think praying is hopeful wishing, so to me they look like weak, pitiful beings who can't make their life on their own without a being watching over them. But hey, that's just me. Praying in public I have nothing against, as long as I am able to get away from it when it becomes disturbing (as one can get away from people on the streets shouting out that there is an armageddon tomorrow). I just want everyone to keep their religion to themselves.

maybe twas better to remove the prayer and stop some people being hypocritical by being made to say a prayer for a god they dont believe in....?

Sadly, the hypocrisy does not end there. I am expected to say that this country, the U.S., is under the Judeo-Christian god in our pledge(don't give me that bullshit about the god being a ceremonial deist god, it is a capitalized god, said to be over us humans, and was inserted in due to the protestant campaigns in the 1950's to get god everywhere they could, and even if it is a deist god, it is divisive, and uncalled for). Not to mention the facts that the money I earn and spend says I trust in God, and the coins that I earn and spend say the same thing. I have no clue what benefit this could have brought, as it only brings positive harm, divides the nation, and misrepresents the people.

Ordos, that's probably what happens at my school, but I never get around to checking it (the flag poles are a ways away from where the buses load and drop off the students).

[Babylon]

Actually Babylon, US law dictates students are allowed to pray in school if it isn't disruptive.

I think it's ok to do it if you want to. But I don't think a public school can make students pray.

[Navaros]

Akriku: guys who do not have any awareness of Spiritual things, as you do not - should NOT try to quote the Bible. you are totally misunderstanding what Jesus has said and taking His words out of context

Jesus was merely saying that you do not pray as an act of Pride. you do not pray to "show-off". you do not pray publically in order to convey to other people that you are closer to God than they are.

that is *ALL* Jesus meant by those verses.

what you Akriku are doing, is trying to warp the words of a Man who you know nothing about to mean something which He did *NOT* mean. Jesus did not say that a Christian should be ashamed to pray in public, or bury his head in the sand if someone catches him praying in public. No. Jesus said to be bold. a real Christan will pray out loud whenever he feels like it. not because he is insecure. not because he wants to flaunt his religion in your face. only because he is a true follower of his God and is not ashamed to boldly talk to him whenever he feels the need.

Jesus has *NO* problem with loudly praying in public if the intentions of the prayer are genuine

[Acriku]

Let me quote it again.

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 6:5-8)"

My emphasis added.

[TMA_1]

Jesus Christ said that he loves to hear the silent prayer in closed doors. He said that those who love to pray in public, and show their great "piety" to people are very superficial. I pray all the time every day, but do it quietly. God knows the thoughts and intentions of every heart, and doesnt need verbal communication. Plus speaking out loud during prayer is only good I think when you are in a fellowship of christians, or when you need to really focus on what you are praying about, and dont want to lose your train of thought.

[Tio_Holtzmann]

nav, in all fairness you cant just say "youre not a xian therefore you shouldnt be quoting scripture." that's not gonna get anyone anywhere. respect all peeps' opinions on the bible.

i see where you're coming from acriku, and i do wonder about the SYATP thing. like i know it mightn't necessarily be prideful, but hey, prayer works regardless of whether its done in public or not IMHO, and i think there are better ways of reaching people than by weirding them out with public prayer. the fact is, some ppl just mightnt like spiritual things like that being done overtly and it mightnt be such a great witness to people.

sorry that's probly seeming like a v weird ramble, agolopies all round..

[Navaros]

Akriku - i have read your post the *first* time and responded to it. no need to repeat yourself.

evidently, you have not read my rebuttal of that post even *once*. your solution when you do not have anything reasonable or intelligent to say after i refute your statements is always either to ignore my post completely, or repeat yourself verbatim. guess that is because your statements have no merit.

tio - i *can* say that he shouldn't speak on Spiritual matters if he is going to misrepresent quotes from Jesus to pretend that they carry a meaning which Jesus did not intend for them. that is what Akriku has done in this thread, and others in the past as well ( in the past, maybe not as much so Akriku as ACElethal. who is also guilty of the same crime).

[Tio_Holtzmann]

nav you have to respect everyone's opinions, and try and understand where people are coming from and engage with their arguments rather than just blow them out of the water first chance you get otherwise you're not going to get anywhere.

i would not have said acriku is pretending to misrepresent anything, i feel he's just telling us what he thinks that scripture is saying.

and nav do you have to hold grudges for so long? give people the benefit of the doubt.

[ordos45]

tio - i *can* say that he shouldn't speak on Spiritual matters if he is going to misrepresent quotes from Jesus to pretend that they carry a meaning which Jesus did not intend for them.

You're Jesus now Nav?

Anyhow, you're also saying he shouldn't seek out God's Word and read from it. If Acriku is reading the Bible in order to argue with you, good.

[Acriku]

If anybody can tell me how I have interpreted it wrongly, then by all means speak up.

[Tio_Holtzmann]

i just think that prayer in the open mightnt necessarily be hypocritical, i think jesus was slaming the pharisees who just prayed openly for attention. dunno if the whole SYATP thing is just for show.

but then again, prayer is prayer is prayer. i believe it works even if one prays openly or in private.

i dont think that verse is an actual command saying that ALL prayer in the open is wrong, because perhaps jesus was talking about it in the context of hypocritical open prayer. altho to be honest i dont know what difference praying in the open would make so perhaps acriku is right....

yeah sorry for being ambiguous. i do that a lot.

[Navaros]

If anybody can tell me how I have interpreted it wrongly, then by all means speak up.

i already did in reply #13

[Acriku]

But your reply does not make sense, when the verses are that unambiguous and to-the-point.

[nemafakei]

Jesus was merely saying that you do not pray as an act of Pride. you do not pray to "show-off". you do not pray publically in order to convey to other people that you are closer to God than they are.

"that is *ALL* Jesus meant by those verses."

How do you KNOW?

The most simple interpretation is that you should not pray in synagogues, streets and so on.

Anything further... well, your version is a significant extrapolation which requires some degree of evidence before any credance can be given.

This is especially so since most of the greek is repeated, and the second attempt is more confirmed (6:3 being somewhat indirect), with straight imperatives and very clear, detailed instructions. Had it just been intended that prayer could be done wherever, so long as you are not boasting about it, then it would make more sense to use more than the five words "that they may be seen of men" (using Acriku's translation), of which the second (an) implies a rather indefinite construction (it almost meriths the introduction of 'perhaps' into the English translation) and does nothing else to the meaning.