is the bible real or just some verry old story?

[TMA_1]

"Things taken by faith can be proven, but not if it is taken by faith."

did anybody laugh when they saw this stated?

You can use a drill to make a table, but you cant use a drill. how about that? ;)

"since faith by definition does not deal with any evidence, and we have evidence of our perceptions. "

We percieve evidance, but how do we know our perception is correct? we are imperfect beings, and have been known to incorrectly percieve things. Perception is based on faith, because we dont know absolute truth. I suggest reading some plato, he talks about this kinda stuff and I tend to agree with some of it.

Gryphon: I didnt mean for it to sound commanding. I meant that the bible should be taken by faith. That is if you believe in christ and follow his message. There are those who dont believe in it though and just go to church because the church supports many great morals and standards, they themselves will tell you though they dont believe it to be true. My biology teacher is a guy like that, and he is one of most respected people in my book, because he will not mince words with that stuff.

[Acriku]

Whatchu talkin' 'bout Willis?

Of course we don't know if we are correct. But we must assume that we are not in 'The Matrix' because we have no reason to believe we are. Unless someone outside of The Matrix tells you that you are in The Matrix.

[fremfedeliteNIAC]

we have as much evidence of us being in the matrix (more so IMO) as there is evidence that there is God

[Dune_trooper360]

Has anyone seen signs of god?  like have you ever ben in a life or death situation and some how survived and thaked god for saving you.  How do you know it was god? 

[Wolf]

Faith is only faith if it exists for its own sake.

[Kiyouta]

Would God exist, if no-one believed in him?

[DjCiD]

Has anyone seen signs of god?

[Emperor Harkonnen]

Would God exist, if no-one believed in him?

of course he would! he does not depend on us, it is we who depend on him!

[Acriku]

Emperor, what if he is but an idea? Then, the idea, or God, depends on our thoughts. Although 'God' is an ambiguous term, it being capitalized gives us a good clue that it is of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god. So, this Judeo-Christian-Islamic god's existence solely depends on people thinking of it, having a memory of it.

If he exists, then of course his existence is not determined by our memory of him. Did God create man, or did man create God? So says the famous saying.

Dj, haven't seen you in a while ;) Nice invite-reinvite games on Xbox Live.

I must ask you a question though: Why you, and not others? Many people find or re-find their faith through personal experiences, but from my standpoint they are just given a situation and placing God anywhere fit. A kidnapped little girl is found, barely alive, and lives to tell about it. The parents call it a miracle, surely the work of God. And yet, hundreds maybe even thousands of little children are kidnapped, and never found again, or found dead. Why didn't God interfere and help them out? Why leave them to die and this one girl to live? Was it really a miracle, then?

[GUNWOUNDS]

Emperor, what if he is but an idea? Then, the idea, or God, depends on our thoughts. Although 'God' is an ambiguous term, it being capitalized gives us a good clue that it is of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god. So, this Judeo-Christian-Islamic god's existence solely depends on people thinking of it, having a memory of it.

If he exists, then of course his existence is not determined by our memory of him. Did God create man, or did man create God? So says the famous saying.

Dj, haven't seen you in a while ;) Nice invite-reinvite games on Xbox Live.

I must ask you a question though: Why you, and not others? Many people find or re-find their faith through personal experiences, but from my standpoint they are just given a situation and placing God anywhere fit. A kidnapped little girl is found, barely alive, and lives to tell about it. The parents call it a miracle, surely the work of God. And yet, hundreds maybe even thousands of little children are kidnapped, and never found again, or found dead. Why didn't God interfere and help them out? Why leave them to die and this one girl to live? Was it really a miracle, then?

i was always told that it was because  people go about in their daily lives pretty monotonously..... and things like this are supposed to shake us up and make us ponder our mortality.

which in turn makes us think about god.  which is what we should be thinking about i suppose.  i know when my cousin who was 19 yrs old was killed... i  stopped just going about my daily life routine in which i was oblivious to others.... and have pondered my life , reason for existance, and mortality ever since. 

but i think it is more .....that god gave us a free will .. and in that free will we are vulnerable....... now as to whether being closer to god affords you some kind of protection.. like a guardian angel or something i have no idea.....  which pertains to the kidnapped girl issue....

would be nice to think that tho.

however i have to say one thing....i am the eldest of all the grandchildren in my family.... and the oldest male.

in the bible it talks about how fathers and grandfathers give their eldest males a "father's blessing"... basically asks the lord to bestow blessings of all kinds on you.  i dont remember the story but it was so sought after that there is a story where the younger child steals this blessing by pretending to be his older brother (his father was old with poor eyesight)

  i asked for my grandfather to bestow one of these on me when i was very young. he opened his bible and laid his hands upon me and recited the father's blessings.

i dont know if it has anything to do with it... but i have lived a dream life.... i am not saying things never go wrong ... but i have gotten a great education, married my dream sweetheart, live in a great house.... and have parents that  are wonderful... great friends .. etc etc the list goes on....sometimes i sit back and look at the great life i have and wonder if it is all due to that blessing i recieved... one that i was entitled to...(being the eldest male) and i wonder if so many other people could  receive this but just dont know about it.

[TMA_1]

no acriku, it isnt a miracle per ce. They mean by it usually that it is an amazing thing that the girl is alive, it isnt a miracle, just God's plan at work. A miracle is when God "physically" involves himself in our universe to make actions or an action that hinders or helps a person or a group of people. For instance when the jews after the wars with the egyptian greeks, tried to lite the oil lamp in the temple, they only had one day's worth of oil, but it lasted eight days.

Or obviously when the red sea was parted. I part ways with the idea that god sent them to the sea of reeds, God doesnt need to make things easier on himself.lol the ocean could be parted without any problem at all obviously.

[Inoculator9]

Congratulations Gunwounds, lovely sentiment, but I personally find that particular belief to be fairly self righteous. Despite my being an atheist, I don't think any Christian that truly follows the morals and spirits of his religion would believe that their God puts so much weight on someone's age.

[edsbrick]

of course the bible is just a hip hop breakbeat of all the pagan/aboriginal/native north american,earth loving religons.

it took peoples worship of nature and demonised it.

ie.shamans,witch doctors,herballists and apothecarys all victimised for doing 'satans' work,just because they didn't do it in the 'name of the lord'.after the bible came fear and guilt,the christian faith of any denomination is based on these principals.

obviously these are only my opinions,i dont expect you to agree, just to make you think .

ed

[SurlyPIG]

I don't really like the idea that any God would be actively involved in the doings of everyday life.  That would mean its inaction is intentional, and look at the world.  What happens in this world every day is incompatable with an actively interfering God (or at least, people's perception of that God).  That would mean that God is two-faced, for lack of a better term, for if he gives miracles, then he is neglegent when miracles are in abscence.

I much like the idea of a passive God, from which people draw strength.  Most theists (save deists, perhaps) draw some kind of comfort or strength from their faith and I think that's what the essence of God is.  I don't think any God worth worshiping would sit in his high chair and meddle in the affairs of the mortal world, the idea that God exists in the hearts and minds of his believers is more sensical to me.

[edsbrick]

god is you,the earth and anything you believe in.

probably

ed

[Inoculator9]

I agree completely with you ACE. A god making salvation and all the other bits of hoo-ha dependant on worship is a very conceited god indeed ;)

[edsbrick]

surely any god is a superior [to us humans] being,yet all gods are not superior enough to  show themselves in a phsical sense,how can anyone believe in a deity that fails thousands if not millions of humans every day through famine ,floods deaths etc.

yet 'most' of them request/demand un wavering loyalty,that occasionally leads people to kill even more dis believers.

the closest persons to any "god" in recent memory have to be people like..........

ghandi

martin luther king

john lennon

etc.

because these people spoke of SHARING everything,but human nature being what it is ,these people are condemned to history,their words their only legacy.imagine,i have a dream etc.

[Acriku]

GUNWOUNDs, it'd be pretty messed up if God gave you those riches and good fortune just because you came out first.

TMA, you listen to the parents of the kidnapped girl a while ago (it was all over the news, about a guy impersonating Jesus), and then tell me they don't think it was the actual involvement of Jesus/God himself.

[Anathema]

i dont remember the story but it was so sought after that there is a story where the younger child steals this blessing by pretending to be his older brother (his father was old with poor eyesight)

That would be the history of Jacob and Esau (I don't know if those are their correct English names)

Inoc, take into acccount that those were very different times. The oldest man in the family was the leader of the family because he is the wisest, and someone has to lead. Also it would more often be a burden then a privilege.

Of course such ideas have lost most of their meaning nowadays.

About God's interference with Earthly affairs, in the past he intervened quite a bit, like the fall of Babylon. Yet today His hand can't be perceived in the course of events. Does this mean that humanity has reached an era when God doesn't think it's necessary to further steer humanity in some direction, or does His interference just escape our eyes completely?

[edsbrick]

About God's interference with Earthly affairs, in the past he intervened quite a bit, like the fall of Babylon. Yet today His hand can't be perceived in the course of events. Does this mean that humanity has reached an era when God doesn't think it's necessary to further steer humanity in some direction, or does His interference just escape our eyes completely?

Anathema ,perhaps he/she/it doesn't exist?

ed

[GUNWOUNDS]

Inoc, take into acccount that those were very different times. The oldest man in the family was the leader of the family because he is the wisest, and someone has to lead. Also it would more often be a burden then a privilege.

Of course such ideas have lost most of their meaning nowadays.

aaah yes anath.... BUT ... what if the spiritual world is like the physical world??  meaning that god has set in place certain "spiritual laws of physics" .... meaning spiritual things that function because they are  designed to function as such.  For instance in the physical world you have gravity ....if you jump up you will fall back down to the ground..... if i throw a baseball at your head it will knock you in the head. 

  In the spiritual world maybe still calling upon this father's blessing  activates something as well.  If the father's blessing brought good fortune to the eldest males back in old testament times (they needed it of course since they were to be leaders)  but who is to say god de-activated it today? 

It could be a spiritual  mechanism that is part of the spiritual world...  same as when god says sinning  will only bring destruction.... perhaps because that is how things function in the spiritual realm.

This could mean that there are alot of things that you could find and unlock in the bible and we just dont know about it.

Just because it is old and ancient.... who is to say it does not function or apply anymore?

[Acriku]

Or it's just plain foolery. To think that a grandfather can 'bless' the eldest grandson and then the grandson will gain all sorts of riches. Sounds like a fairytale to me from the same past that had divine rights of kings, etc.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Or it's just plain foolery. To think that a grandfather can 'bless' the eldest grandson and then the grandson will gain all sorts of riches. Sounds like a fairytale to me from the same past that had divine rights of kings, etc.

i knew acriku was gonna say this but  i would like to debate this further with other believers.....so that there can be further discussion beyond the phrase  "i dont believe in that".

[Acriku]

So GUNWOUNDS, you're saying that any eldest grandson (or whomever) can be blessed by their grandfather and receive riches and fortune? This can be easily tested, and thus easily found wrong. It would also require actual proof of causation on the blessing's part. Is A the effect of B, or are other random and nonrandom factors included? Very difficult to do. So to assert that attending such a ritual does indeed give fortune is very presumptuous, and baseless. For others to take you seriously, you'd have to provide more than subjection and speculation.

Besides, what else can be discussed further if the original topic is not founded upon anything? The afterhand discussion would be as baseless as the first, going nowhere and receiving nothing in thought.

[GUNWOUNDS]

So GUNWOUNDS, you're saying that any eldest grandson (or whomever) can be blessed by their grandfather and receive riches and fortune? This can be easily tested, and thus easily found wrong. It would also require actual proof of causation on the blessing's part. Is A the effect of B, or are other random and nonrandom factors included? Very difficult to do. So to assert that attending such a ritual does indeed give fortune is very presumptuous, and baseless. For others to take you seriously, you'd have to provide more than subjection and speculation.

Besides, what else can be discussed further if the original topic is not founded upon anything? The afterhand discussion would be as baseless as the first, going nowhere and receiving nothing in thought.

once again.. let me clarify that i am not getting into a debate of whether god exists or not... or whether i can use A to prove B  or C to calculate D. 

I want to discuss this assuming that:

1.) god does exist

2.) that this father's blessing was real and active in the old testament.

3.) why it would not apply to today or why god would de-activate something

this obviously means you will have to be a believer to discuss this with me...... and thus i need to offer no "proof" to make people "take me seriously"  as acriku suggests.

if two hindu's wanted to discuss aspects of re-incarnation..... then i doubt there is a place for someone in the conversation who thinks it is all fairy tales.  However you have said your opinion acriku.... and it has been noted... so move along.

i am not trying to convince anoyone that this is real as acriku is suggesting..... i merely want another believer's opinion on the matter.