gowachin

If the BG and Mentats were real people and organizations... they probably would be more rational. But they're not real people, they're not even people... they're characters. Having characters act rational (or trying to) all the time would make for a boring story. Honor, revenge, the lives of royal families, traditions (or the breaking of them)... people (real people) like these things in stories. It makes the story bigger, better for many readers. I'm not trying to be flippant... I just don't know if the concepts Emperor H is trying to explore can be really connected to a story like Dune, because characters have to be bigger, more intense, more emotional than real people (or real countries, or real planets). Take Duncan for example... he's such a great character, but I would find his emotions (and his homophobia) tiresome as a real person.

Maybe the entire family had to move because Leto I had to rule Dune himself, he didn't have a family member of age to act as a proxy. The Baron had two. Or one (the Beast) and then two (I think Feyd was going to be 18 by the time it was his turn to rule Dune).

Lord Johnsonius: Thanks for the welcome. I love this forum, just not much of a poster. I started out on Star Trek (which I still love), then Star Wars (meh)... but nothing, NOTHING, in sci-fi compares to Dune. Lawliet: Amazon.com is, pretty much, the greatest thing ever. I'm reading Children of Dune on my Kindle for PC right now, then plan to download all the Elric of Melnibone books next. Saying that... I still get that "finding buried treasure" feeling when I find a FH book I haven't read at a used bookstore.

Hi everyone! I'm mostly a lurker, haven't posted in a long time, but I'm in the mood (I know, I know... mood is for cattle and love play). Anyway, I think I've read most of FH's non-Dune stuff. Started White Plague... couldn't get into it, but will try again. Tried the WorShip novels... they still make my head hurt. I need to get Hellstrom's Hive, Dragon in the Sea, Direct Descent, and Eye (and a few others). I like reading his non-Dune stuff, because it gives me so much insight into Dune. For example, The Dosadi Experiment. In Dune, we get a brief look into FH's theme of "harsh environments produce superior creatures" with the Fremen and Sardaukar. In Dosadi... the entire book is about that specific theme. I am of the belief that to fully understand FH's philosophy and themes, one must read outside The Dune Chronicles. The main reason I posted, though, is three words: Local Used Bookstores! Your hometown... if you're on a trip... any city or town you're in... check the used bookstores. If you want to find non-Dune, out of print, FH books, those are the places to look. Here's what I've found at used bookstores in GA, FL and MA: The Worlds of Frank Herbert The Godmakers The Heaven Makers The Jesus Incident Destination: Void The White Plague Soul Catcher I also found three short stories on eReader.com (which were awesome, BTW) That's it. I hope I'm in the mood to post more to this awesome forum!

Sure... more stylized would be great! When I made it, all I saw was an eye... but I see what you mean. But, an eye/planet, planet/eye might work as well. BTW, I still have the Photoshop file, with it's layers... if anybody wants it. At first, I thought the Eyes of Ibad were like what they had in the movie and SciFi series. But after reading all the books (Frank's books, that is), I realized that both the iris AND the whites were a deep blue (the "blue-in-blue")... that one wouldn't have a visible distinction between the two. If the pupils were blue... it would mean that, either the lens was colored opaque blue, or the fluid inside the eyeball was an opaque blue. Basically, we're talking deep blue cataracts. The pupil must be black (or "clear") to let light in. The Bene Gesserit and the Fremen just wouldn't be the badasses they are, if they were blind!

Yeah, the Bene Gesserit aren't the funniest group around. I was trying to come up with something clean and simple... using the colors I associate with the BG... blues and black. Something just didn't sit right with me with the "book and snake" logo. The snake seems evil... and I don't see the BG as evil. I know seeing the snake as evil is a simple, base reaction... must be the old Catholic in me. Plus, this is for a boardgame. When your piece lands on that image/space... there would be no doubt on what it represents.

I agree that the BG probably wouldn't have a crest... distaste of adornment, and all that. Here's the idea I have. Instead of trying to explain it, I just did it in Photoshop. Please feel free to use it. If not... no biggie. Hope you like it. To me, it can represent three things: The incredible awareness of the BG, The powers they gain from the spice, The goal of all sisters to become a Reverend Mother <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/Gowachin/BGLogo/photo#5069847602836008770"><img src="http://lh3.google.com/image/Gowachin/Rlu3iJhn70I/AAAAAAAAAG4/7xFblZYtvSo/s800/BGlogo.jpg" /></a>

Awwww...Newt, you're so sweet! ;D I really want to, and fully intend to, post something on our wiki. But I gotta re-read Frank's books, first. I haven't played any of the games, and I can't re-read Brian's books... and reading this forum (and the wiki), I have realized that alot of what I have on Dune in my head is fuzzy or flat-out wrong. If I am going to post to the wiki... it needs to be as correct as possible... I don't want to pull something outta my ass just fill the wiki with articles. Thanx for the encouragement, tho! :)

Has anybody checked this out? I found it through Memory Alpha, the Star Trek wiki. http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Good God! You mean there is a 'Space Oprah'!! Does 'Earth Oprah' know about this? Will they battle like Godzilla and Mecha-Godzilla? Our beautiful blue marble might be destroyed!! Just kidding! Seriously... I don't think I'll ever stop getting insights from Dune and Frank's other books. I simply have never read anything like his stuff. It blows me away, and it has changed my life! Granted, I still have a lot of books to read! Thanks for sharing, TMA... and glad it makes you happy. It does me too!

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,1730828,00.html I wonder which side is true? Personally, I believe what Matt Stone saying is on-the-ball... I see too many people willing to poke fun at anothers religion, and not thier own. Anyway... I will miss Chef.

Yep... there it is on page 13. Truthsayer drug. Kull Wahad! Now, I'm confused!

Really? I thought it did. And I don't remember it specifically saying that it was the truthsayer drug that killed all those who died trying. It's been a while since I've read Dune, I could totally be mistaken. I'll have dig out my Dune and check it out. It's packed away!

To me, the Encyclopedia is personally canon. I wouldn't try to convince others that it is offically canon. I really don't care... though I certainly think it has more of the spirit of Frank's work then the books by his son. I also only take sections of it as my canon. I have incorporated almost everything written in the Encyclopedia about the Bene Gesserit into my understanding of the Bene Gesserit... where as I totally dismiss other articles such as the one on the Tyrant that suggests he is nothing but an 8 year-old spoiled brat in a 3500 year-old body. Then we have the statement that RM Mohaim is Jessica's mother... from what I've read, it was put in there as a joke. And, of course, it doesn't have anything in it from Heretics and Chapterhouse... how sad that makes me! Anyway... I love my Encyclopedia... and I'm thankful to an old roommate, who didn't understand its value and gave it to me for free!

And her decision caused the Bene Gesserit thousands of years of suffering. First under Maud'Dib, then the Tyrant. She became the "Heretic" and started the long lesson that the Atreides would teach the Bene Gesserit. It was a hard lesson, but one that the BG needed to learn... and I believe that Taraza and, especially, Odrade did learn that lesson... at least a little.

after thinking about it... I answered my own question. I'll have to agree with the other posters that the BG used spice for the Agony at the time of the first book. Paul was told that many men had tried the Water of Life ceremony to see if they were a KH. A KH is a male Reverend Mother... if he was to use spice essence for the Agony... why not the BG? Concerning RM Mohaim's eyes... sure, she could have used contacts. But I think Frank had just not figured everything out about his universe. For example: after the first book, we never hear anything again about the use of Sapho and the red lips of Mentats. He just threw the whole concept away. Thanks for the help, guys.

I haven't read it in a while, so I hope I remember this correctly. What I gather from the Encyclopedia, women AND men from the areas you mention had access to Other Memory. At some point, men lost this ability. Women formed primitive organizations to preserve this trait and to see if men would, someday, be able to gain it again. These primitive organizations were spread across the Old World. Now, when it comes to the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood proper... this organization seems to have been formed in and around Rome during the late Republic/early Empire. Though there were organizations before this time, with variations of the same name, the organization that would last (underground until the Great Revolt) started at this time, in this area. This makes the Bene Gesserit the oldest continuous human organization in history. The search for men to regain access to Other Memory is what, eventually, turns into the program to create the Kwizatz Haderach. Some proto-Kwizatz Haderachs (called "active-trait males" in the Encyclopedia) were: Alexander the Great, the God-Emperor Augustus, and Jesus. The Roman Emperor Caligula was the first Abomination. Sorry for the long-winded answer... but I really love the stuff in the Encyclopedia about the BG. With the Sisterhood going back this far... it makes me think of the women throughout history who could have been BG. The mother (Atia) and wife (Livia) of Augustus; the "three Mary's" associated with Christ; Eleanor of Aquitaine (watch The Lion in Winter w/Hepburn... the essence of BG); Elizabeth I; Eleanor Roosevelt; hell... K. Hepburn, herself... just to name a few. O.K., I'm done!

Thanx for the answer, MrFlibble. I know that the BG had Reverend Mothers, and access to Other Memory, before Jessica went thru the Water of Life ceremony on Dune. I guess I'm looking for opinions on if they used melange for the Agony, before Jessica. I'm pretty sure they did... FH simply doesn't address it. It could be something he hadn't totally thought out, yet. RM Mohaim is said to have "sparkling bird eyes" if I remember correctly... no "blue in blue" mentioned for her. And she certianly could have been wearing contacts (like Bellonda in Heretics & Chapterhouse). But, I'm thinking there may have been another substance used before RM Ramallo and The Heretic (it's talked about in the Dune Encyclopedia). I'm just interested in thoughts from other posters.

I think it's a pretty safe bet that chairdogs were of Tleilaxu origin, even without a quote. FH kept the "spheres of influence" pretty specific, even in the later books. IX = all things technological... Bene Tleilax = all things biological. Plus, chairdogs seem to me to be things that would have to be grown in axlotl tanks... and IX did not have axlotl tanks. My opinion, of course.

Sligs. "Sweetest meat in the universe!"

Question: should RM Mohaim have the Eyes of Ibad? In other words... did the BG have the Water of Life ceremony before The Heretic Jessica? Was Spice involved in the making of Reverend Mothers, before The Heretic?

Totally agree with you. Because I watch more sci-fi than I read, I see what you mean about "linear", say, in Star Trek (tho, that's not too far into the future). I see the western model in lots of visual sci-fi. At the time of Maud'Dib and the Tyrant (and 10,000 years before), we see a regression into an ancient form of government, because it is thought that mankind finds this form most comfortable and useful. I forget the long German word Herbert uses... "A place for every man, a man for every place". How many thousands of years did it take to find this "level"? What kinds of governments, and human organizations & experiments, lived and died before the Great Revolt? Even though this system is empire-wide, we have individual entities with different forms. In Heretics and Chapterhouse (with the Old Empire pretty much gone), we see the BG form of government in more detail, along with the Bene Tleilax. We don't get much on Ix and the Guild, but I'm guessing it's different than the set up of the Golden Lion Throne. The human universe of Dune can be very shocking. One of the reasons I love the Bene Gesserit is that I think they are working for this "plateau" you are wondering about. I am going to butcher this quote from James Madison, but basically... "If all men were angels, there would be no need for government". I think that is what must happen to reach that plateau... we must all become angles (not literally, of course). The BG, in their own way, are working towards that. And for us all to live to our fullest. About the Romans... I read that at one point during the empire, all the parts to build the steam engine were in existance... but they never came together. Imagine if the steam engine had been invented that long ago...wow! Maybe it had something to do with slavery, which seems to hamper innovation? you're right, good stuff!

Sorry, Arutha, but the Dune journey came to an end for me with Chapterhouse. The only BH&JKA Dune stuff I have read is the Legends of Dune series, and The Road to Dune. I was very dissapointed. I think it is because I love Frank Herbert, Philosopher. Brian simply does not have the philosophic mind that his father had. But, I will still buy 7 & 8 (in paperback, or used), and I will probably enjoy them on some level.

I totally forgot about the deposit box notes. As much as it seems, to me, that the enemies "out there" (that the BG need the power of the HM to fight) are obvious in Chapterhouse... I would have to go with what is in the notes. Thanks for the reminder.

I think it's pretty obvious from Chapterhouse that the threat is from advanced forms of Face Dancers. Mules no more, independent of Masters, with new powers. But, of course, that probably doesn't matter to Brian & Kevin. I'm afraid it will probably will be something to do with Ominus. I, also, wouldn't be surprised if they did something terrible with that capsule imbedded in Scytale's chest. Oh, the horror! What I'm interested (scared?) in seeing is how they deal with the legacy of Murbella. What is this union of Honored Matre & Bene Gesserit going to be like? Personally, I think the original six are totally about the Bene Gesserit, so I would like to see this new BG take a prominent role in the new books. But I'm sure I will be disapointed. Oh, well.