Warskum

I think we look at this from the Biblical point of view that line will be more clearer. In the Bible God promises Abraham a son from Sara. Sara suggest Abraham to get a son from Hagar, which happens. Then God again says that a son will be given to him from Sara, this is the PROMISED SON, very important to note this. When Isaac was born, Ismael was send away, leaving Abraham with Isaac only. I don't really understand how there can be doubts about who Abraham was supposed to sacfice. Of course God will aks for the most beloved to be sacficed, which is Isaac since he is from Sara whom Abraham loves and moreover he is the son God promised to Abraham. This is the story, but God did not write these things so that they are just a nice story for us, they have deeper meanings. In the new testament a part of the meaning of this story is revealed. Galatians 4: 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. 24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband." 28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[c] 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman. I find it quite interesting that Islam is actually accepting Ismael to be their ancestor. Because according to the bible that would be a bad thing. Moreover, look at what God says will happen to Ismael and see that this is true if we look at the current Islamitic region: Genesis 16: his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers." If we look at the world now, it seems that the world is against the middle east and vica versa, mainly due to terrorists etc. Moreover, since Isreal is decending from Isaac, Israel is the brother of Ismael's decendants and we all know there is big hostility between these two groups of people. This also shows that the bible is really the word of God, since this was said many thousands of years before and is not being fullfilled as we can see.

Well there are people who say they are christians and those who are christians, those who are read the bible every single day for the rest of their lives. Still, its quite hard to measure the amount of times a book is read. We have people in our church who have probably read the bible over 1000x , but i doubt the writer of that book has interviewed this person, so still, making statements like that cannot be taken seriously since it is too hard to really measure.

No goatmen are mentioned in the bible, the given verse does not contain goatmen. You said: "Koran is the most read book and the most memorized book in the world and it has the most influence on those who read it or recite it" I am quite sure that the bible holds the most read book position, selling more then 100million each year. I am surprised anyone measured what book was most memorized...did someone ask every human being which book he or she memorizes? I think thats biased information, for example most of the people around me memorize the bible and cite it every day and their lives have dramatically changed and continue to change every day, so I could argue that the bible has the biggest effect on people who read it and is memorized the most. However, that would be biased information, since I have no statistical evidence to back that up. In short, I feel that the above statement you made is biased and not true.

I have a few questions about islam: What happens when one sins? What does the Islam say about the task of humans...what does Allah expect from them? What do people get when they go to heaven?

What I see here is humans trying to figure out why God does things and how He should do it based on their inferior brians. Problem is that the wisdom which is used on this forum is considereded stupitidy by God. Therefore trying to reason based on your logic of devine things is a rather pointless thing to do. Look at what the Bible says after Gods ways: Romans 11: 33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34"Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?"[j] 35"Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?"[k] 36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. Now a few things I would like to clarify. God gives everyone a chance to repent and turn to him. The bible says that God is even manifested through the nature (its too complex and perfect to been the result of billions years of "luck"). Moreover, people do hear the word of God everywhere, no matter where (even in the tribes etc that are away from the world, The Word has reached there as well). Now what is required is to be open to God. When God knocks the door of your hart and you do not open...who's fault is it? Open and He will manifest Himself to you. Look back at your life and see home many times He has knocked your door, every single time someone has tried to talk to you about God in a good way, it was God knocking your door. People want to see God, but God is behind the door, open the door to see Him. God is not a thief to break your door open, you have to open it for HIm. When I heard the Word of God I was open to it, yes I had my doubts etc, but I was willing to find out. Only after opening the door of my hart and allowing Jesus to enter God started to manifest Himself to me much better and still is, for which I thank God. But the problem is that people don't want to even consider, people don't want to take a single step, yet want to get it all. I posted qoutes earlier in this thread, yet no one payed attention to them, while they contain clear proof of Gods existence. People want God to reveal to them the way they will like He should. That is not how things works, God is God and works the way He likes. He has given proof to people that he exists, He has given man a great blessing which every single human being can experience. He has given man a sign, a miracle which is supernaturel which can and will happen to EVERY believer who repents, turns away from sin and asks for it with faith. And all of this can be found inside the qoutes I qouted here: http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?topic=20591.msg328742#msg328742

Revelation 13: 16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

To see whether a religion is right one has to look at the book of that religion. As I am trying to proof to everyne here that the Christian God exists, I qoute from the Bible. What I qouted is a promise from Jesus to everyone who believes in him. Now if Jesus exists, wouldn't it mean that the promise should be fullfiled even to this day? Now this particular promise has a sign attached to it which is an miracle and is the proof that Jesus exists. (look at 1 Cor. 14.22). The reason why I am asking people here to post their interpretation of the promise is because I want God to reveal it to everyone here personaly so your faith is not based on my words but on that of God. Since the bible says that few enter through the narrow door which leads to Jesus and many go through the large door which leads to death, I'd say that large quantaties are not a good sign. Also note that many people calling themselves Christians are not Christians, actually this goes for the majority, of which I used to be part of. Acriku: Heaven = Eteranl Life. Hell = Eternal death. Jesus says that He is Life. If you don't accept Life, why do you want to live? Can you live without breathing? People reject Life, yet do not want to die. Hell was actually made for the devil and his angels, but by rejecting God man choose for hell himself. How many times has God reached onto you and tried to get you to believe him? How many persons has he send to you to convert you and give you Life? Questions apply for all non believers, look carefuly to your past and see that God has been knocking on your door. But you don't open and yet want to live... Its like refusing to breath and still wanting to live. See even now, when I posted qoutes from the bible that can proof God's existence, not a single person has tried to read and understand what they say it seems. Nema: Bible says hell was made for the devil and his angels, but by rejecting Life people themselves choose for damnation. Human soul was made to live with God forever, yet humans rejected God.

If you read my 1st post you will find the answers to your post. God is not dead but alive. God's own word says that in order to believe one needs proof and assurance. So in short, since we are dealing with a living God, interaction is possible and getting proof and assurance is possible and actually God is more then willing to do this to save people. Jesus clearly says somewhere that if people don't see signs they will not believe. I would like to ask you to read my 2nd posts with the qoutes from the bible and post what you think the qoutes say. Because the qoutes contain evidence of the Christian God's existence

Acriku, if God exists then so does hell and heaven and thus eternal life or eternal death. This seems quite serious to me and would seem quite logical to try to atleast find out whether God exists or not. For example if quite some people say eating an food X is lethal. Wouldn't it be wise for both those that believe and don't believe to try to find evidence supporting them since this is a matter of life and death? The reason why I don't want to go into detail is the following... I don't want anyone to believe based on what a human says, but based on what God says and does. Therefore I will post a few qoutes from the bible below, with no interpretation from me. I would like to ask everyone to read the qoutes and then summarize in a few sentences what they think the qoutes say. In my opinion the qoutes are very clear, but the problem is that most people who call themselves Christians wouldn't be able to explain them to you. After a while I will post the interpretation, not based on my idea's or whatever, but on what I see everyday, which is one of my evidences of Gods existence. QOUTES: Mathew 3: 11"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire." ----- John 14: 15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever

Why do people believe what they believe? I think thats an important thing to look at. I will use my story to illustrate my point. I am an Armenian, and since we accepted Christianity in 301 we are the first Christian country. Being raised with this background I always called myself a Christian and actually thought I was one. So I believed that God existed because I was raised like that. Would I have been born in an Islamitic family or an Atheist one, I probably would have believed whatever I was thaught. Now about 1 year ago God entered my life. I don't want to go into details, but lets say I now have proof that Jesus is God and that He exists. This is not based on my background, since I can now say, I wasnt a Christian before. It is based on facts and proof, proof one cannot deny if it would happen to anyone. Its not a one time miracle thing either, I have proof of Gods existince everyday in my life. One thing has to be realised, God says He is a living God and not dead unlike the gods of other religions, this means one can interact with God. People ussualy think of faith as thinking that something/someone exists based on no clear proof. Look at what the bible says: Hebrew11: 1Now faith is the substance (assurance) of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. So Gods word says that in order to have faith one has to have assurance and proof. God is willing to give this proof to anyone that looks for Him. I don't want anyone to believe based on my story, what I actually would like to ask every non believer and believers with no proof, to pray to God for a week or two and ask Him to show you His true way, that is how it more or less started with me. God will then Himself give you proof of his existence. Edric, God can do everything. He can even show that He is God, or make a square circle etc.. What you are trying is to use the inferior human brain to argue things that the human brain is uncabapable of understanding. Since you are a Christian I assume you have read the bible, if you take a look at 1 Corinthians 1 and 2, you will see how God views people trying to understand his ways and his power. Final note: In order to believe you need to have proof. If you believe God does not exist you need proof too. Just try and pray for a week orso and convince yourself.

God does not need to test faith. As you mentioned God is omnisciesient and thus already knows how good or bad your faith is. So why did God test Abraham? To show Abraham and the current readers what kind of faith is required. God already knew whether Abraham would sacrifice his son or not. The point of most tests is to show us our own condition, so we can work on that and fix it and when we endure tests, we become spiritual stronger. However, except for some very rare ocasions (like the Abraham case) God does not test people. Please read the below part, which is qouted from James 1:2-18: ---- 2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does. 9The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position. 10But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. 11For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business. 12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. 13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. ---- I think this part clearly explains, that when one is tormented etc. one will become spiritual stronger. Moreover, those who die for the name of God or are tormented etc. receive a much better afterlife then others. Somewhere in the bible it is mentioned that a true believer will face many of these problems and this is actually an honor and a joy for the believer, because his reward is big in heaven. Unfortunatly since people are evil of nature and not so smart, some people might twist this and kill or suicide "for God", thinking they do something right, while the bible clearly states that both of these are not allowed. Why doesnt every Christain suffer then? I personaly can see 2 reasons (might be more, but with my current understanding of the bible I only see 2 at this moment): 1. One is not a real strong believer. Those that really, really devote their live to God, WILL be put in trails etc, as it is written. 2. One is not spiritually strong enough or devoted enough. Kind of looks like the first point, bible mentions that no one is tested above his strenghts, therefore those that would not endure this test will not be put to this test. As we can see most prophets and most of Jesus's best followers where eventually killed for the work they had done. The above parts of my text explain why: They where devoted and spiritually strong and through trails etc, they become stronger and eventually where killed, so they would receive a great reward in heaven. Finally a qoute from Mathew 5:10-12: --- 10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. ---

First...what was the sin that forced God to drop Adam and Eve out of paradise? I'd like to advice everyone to ask for Gods help when reading the bible, or you will not even understand the most simple things underlying it. Remember in revelation that only Jesus is able to explain and ''open'' the bible to those who believe (Rev. 5:1-10). Man was made very good as the bible says, and man had free choice. God had given man all he needed and had given man 1 commandment, not to eat from the tree of knowlegde of good and evil. They ate from it and knew about good and evil and now lok at the bold parts in 12 and 13 please. KNOWING good and evil, they both choose not to do good, which is to admit that THEY where wrong and repent, if this would have happened then God would have surely forgiven them. However, as we can see in 12, Adam actaully blaims God by saying the women "YOU put here". Non of them takes the blaim and repents and therefore God throws them out of paradise. So after knowing good and evil, man choose for EVIL. God had given man free choice, since God is love and does not want robots loving him back, but people who actually choose to love him for who He is. However, having this free choice, man choose to be LIKE GOD as we seen in the bold part of 4. Man was not happy with what he had, eventhough he had all he would ever need. Therefore man ate from the tree to become like God. May I point out that the Devil has been thrown out of heaven for a similar thing, he wanted to put his throne above Gods. Now note 15 that bolded, right after the sin God shows His love. That part refers to Jesus, as we can see in Revelation satan start to chase the women and finaly Jesus comes and beats him. So right after the sin was done, God already planned his salvation. God knew what would happen, but he let it happen since he gave man free choice and not allowing it to happen would have course not be free choice. BUT, He also offered a way to salvation through Jesus Christ. So that everyone who would believe would not be lost but would gain eternal life.

Do not confuse creations with children

First you have to believe in God to start the process of salvation, if you don't, you will not be saved even if you help the entire world, that would equal someone who does help people, but still keeps his sins (sins can only be washed away by Jesus' blood) and sin = death. God does interfere with affairs of man, in my short time as a Christian I have seen proofs of this. Salvation is keeping the ten commandments, which will automaticaly lead you to help others and do good things. Jesus summarizes the 10 commandments in these 2: And I want to mention one more thing, man cannot keep the commandments, if you seek to be justified by keeping them, you will fail. When you accept Jesus in your life and ask him to help you, your own hart will judge your every action and you will have the desire to keep the commandments , not because you have to, but because you want to for Jesus sake...its something you have to feel, kind of hard to explain :)

I see your point, but there is no need to make it that complicated. Let me use an example to illustrate something: Imagin you have big debts and you hear that person X has announced that he will pay off any debts anyone has. IF you believe, you will look for person X, you will go to him and you will ask him to pay off your debts. Person X will pay off your debts and tell you: Dont make any debts anymore and he will also provide you with all the info needed to manage your life without making any debts. That is a very simplified example on how salvation works. The bold parts in my example shows actions one has to take, ONLY when taking actions one proves to believe. Now imagin the same example, but now imagin someone who has debt and he says: I believe person X exists and I believe he will pay off my debts. But this person does not take any action, instead continues with his life the way he lived. Does this person really believe? If yes, then why doesnt he go to person X? Clearly this person only claims that he believes, but he doesnt. Faith is not a mentally statement, it consist of actions. Salvation is not a one moment thing, it is something that one has to work for their entire life. Its a life time effort, because the Bible mentions people who accept God and then turn away and Bible clearly states that these people will be in worse state then before and thus will not be saved. So: if you believe, you will take steps and ask Jesus to wash your sins with his blood and then you will ask Him to help you keep His commandements (man cannot keep these, however Bible says that with God's help, we can). Then you must live your life keeping the commandments. Of course one can make mistakes and God will forgive, but one must repent to receive forgiveness. And repent includes not making that mistake/sin again.