If you cannot hear, you have no way to be wise.

[TMA_1]

There are some people in prp who dont even try to listen. We as humans will always grow closed minded at times, but if we are wise then we will try to see other people's perspectives. we will want to do so. I have tried to do this and have listened to many of the world's big religions. I have had urges to understand them, I have also looked at philosophies and have found to my suprise that many of them fit with my beliefs. Some though dont even try to listen, this isnt wisdom.

Acriku, you are a great example. I am not trying to flame you, I am just hoping I can get enough people to show you that you and others on this site just wont listen. If you cant empathize or try to understand other people's ideas then why are you expressing yours? What good is the knowledge you have if you cant listen and understand otehr people's? I had a problemwith this and had to calm down, still havent figured out how to fully listen, but i am working on it. Why though brring out your opinions like some right wing christian? why express views with a fervancy that matches a crusader of religion? There is no wisdom if your wisdom is the only stuff that is spoken. why not calm down and try to not only listen and empathize, but also try to broaden your topics on prp and stop focusing only on a certain issue that frankly gets old after awhile.

No I am not trying to flame, I just saw this last post you wrote, and thought I had to say something.

[Hawat]

Though i would'nt use big words like "wisdom" i agree there.

Why talk if your discussion "opponent" don't try to approach your views?

[Acriku]

I've been listening for many years, and have grown tired of it. What do you expect me to do? - convert? How long do I have to listen to the same garble before I can stop insanity from seeking in? Is there a guideline for this sort of thing?

I am perfectly capable of debating calmly. Emotions do not control me. It's nice to let off a few rants every now and then, and people have their own things that piss them off. Some have the evil conservatives, others have the evil liberals, I have religion. Break any religion down and all you have is blind faith.

[zamboe]

Acriku, if I am not mistaken I think you have been proven to reply in topics whitout even read them, not just once. I remember when you replied to emprworm within less than 15 seconds after he posted an argument that was so long that it would take at least 3 minutes to read, even he made a whole new thread just to show that. So I agree with TMA, you don't need to change your point of view, but at least read/listen to other's opinion, that'd be good for you.

[Acriku]

Zamboe, I refuted that claim if you read further into the topic. When I see someone reply, and while I'm reading I see something I know I am going to reply to, I hit reply and write what I have in mind right then and there. Then I scroll down (funny concept isn't it? you should try it) and read the rest of the post. If I see more to reply, I copy it and quote it and reply. You got nothing, brother. :P

[Navaros]

TMA1:

you say Akriku never listens to anything that is said, yet you do the *EXACT* same thing that you are accusing him of. when someone shows you blatant, clear-cut, undisputable Biblical fact, you "ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist" so you can still call yourself Christian and try to fit in with the ungodly, immoral cesspool of society at the same time.

if you claim to be Christian, you need to stop pretending that the parts of the Bible which you do not like are not there.

[TMA_1]

if you yourself arent a christian, you cannot judge me for how I am a christian, you stir things up and will be banned soon enough, that will be a good thing. keep this on topic. I agree with you zomboe.

"funny concept isn't it? you should try it"

no need for that kind of attitude man, emotions shouldnt cloud your thinking.

[Acriku]

You're not the one getting absurd accusations from zamboe.

[Phage]

Both sides need to excercise civility and have the issues avoid becoming a "you vs me" thing. Such personal debates are never constructive.

Also, all sides should be willing to accept and tolerate a certain degree of honest conservatism in both parties. Like I've said before: arguments are not magic bullets that will change minds over night. Just because I show the Bible has contradiction doesn't mean I should expect a Xian to change then and there, and badger them for failing to do so. Blatant lying would be wrong of course but not honest caution. This means I should not expect to change minds with argument but merely contribute a bit to changing or influencing the audience mind over a certain time.

As for TMA, I don't need to be a christian to judge another Xian or show him/her a hypocrite. That's like saying you can't judge Stalin unless you're a marxist. I'm not accusing you of anything TMA, just disagreeing with your point. I don't need to accept your viewpoint in order to understand it.

[TMA_1]

The fact that you judge them shows that you are not listening. You said that you can call them hypocrites and whatnot, but remember that christians are human. Why are you holding them on a higher pedistel? A famous pastor once said that christians are the best of us and the worst of us. we are imperfect and will make flaws. Also, havent you made a breach of your ethics? havent you failed in following your goals before? That is the same for us. Judging is a very harsh thing, I would suggest staving it off a bit. Also, this isnt a you vs me, if that is the case then nothing constructive can come to the plate. How can you confront a problem that has nothing to do with hurting somebody, and then accuse the confrontation as being hurtful? I am just laying out the cards here that some people, including acriku are extremely hard of philisophical hearing because they already have closed off their desire for greater understanding.

[Phage]

The fact that you judge them shows that you are not listening.

How so? That's a non sequitur. I can listen then judge.

You said that you can call them hypocrites and whatnot, but remember that christians are human.

Yeah I know, but then they can still be human hypocrites.

Why are you holding them on a higher pedistel?

I'm putting them on a pedestal of their own making, when examining their ideas.

A famous pastor once said that christians are the best of us and the worst of us. we are imperfect and will make flaws. Also, havent you made a breach of your ethics? havent you failed in following your goals before? That is the same for us.

Sure but my ethics are situational, not absolutist. And I don't break them and use excuses. Obviously your reasoning on this matter is either/or: either you are a hypocrite and violate some of your code, or you aren't.

However it's not one or two minor violations, it's major ones. As well as arguing one point, then defending it by assuming another. For example christians often say murder is wrong and that is absolute. Universal, no excuses.

But they then justify war by saying it helps save more lives in the end. This isn't just making a minor mistake, this is changing your argument and contradicting yourself.

Judging is a very harsh thing, I would suggest staving it off a bit.

It's also a very human thing. Show me one society or individual that does not judge on a regular basis...can't? Well that's my point.

Also aren't you now judging me for judging?

Also, this isnt a you vs me, if that is the case then nothing constructive can come to the plate. How can you confront a problem that has nothing to do with hurting somebody, and then accuse the confrontation as being hurtful? I am just laying out the cards here that some people, including acriku are extremely hard of philisophical hearing because they already have closed off their desire for greater understanding.

And where did I attack you personally? I said all sides should excercise civility and not turn issues into "you vs me", I didn't say you were doing turning the issue into a matter of personal attack.

All I'm saying is that you can't use "you aren't a xian like me" as a blank check to be a total hypocrite and evade criticism. I'm not saying you are a total hypocrite btw, just sayign IF you were then saying "well your not a xian" is simply an ad hominem defense.

[Caid Ivik]

I don't hear here, I read...

[Timenn]

TMA, no way people are going to admit here that they have been wrong. That is not in the human nature. They are stubborn.

However, you can accomplish that they will think about their own statement, and reconsider that for themselves

[nampigai]

I don't see what the fuss is all about, as I see it TMA you are the same way you claim acriku to be. I'm not trying to be holy or anything as I don't share acriku's attitude towards religion yet many of the things he says are true (in my eyes) I call my self christian, but my belief is mine and mine alone. I do not try to force others to believe in what I believe in (good thing, as I'm not allways sure what it is), nor do I try to take their beliefs away from them.

[TMA_1]

I am not trying to take any beliefs away or anything of that sort. I am simply explaining that sometimes our beliefs can be used to hit and annoy others to the point of doing something about it.

Phage: You put christians on a pedistel yet you dont put yourself on any sort of setting. Again you judge christians when you dont even know the deeper docterns of christianity. This is exactly why I admit my ignorance in many debates like the evolution one. What place would I have to debate something I am absolutely ignorant in? and tehn judge other people in a subject I am clueless in? Christians shouldnt be put on a pedistel, you obviously dont know the docterns because christ has constantly stated that we are just as bad as all other people, you honestly think we think we are better than others? We fail and do stupid and harmful things, but we have christ to forgive, that is the whole point. Christianity is not a belief of action and reaction, it is a belief of forgiveness. The only sin that is unpardinable is that of disbelief. You just hate the fact that we have that barrier and you see it as arrogant.

By the way Timenn, your probably right. I should have rephrased it better. I wouldnt have admitted I was wrong.lol I guess I just want people to think about it for a second. I just dont like it when I and others have to deal with rambling from people who have quarks in their ears.

[Acriku]

If I haven't listened because I haven't converted to your beliefs, then you haven't listened as well. And I don't think you can actually tell whether or not I think things through and follow reasoning through those thoughts. But I'll say I do because I know what I am thinking, you don't.

[Phage]

You put christians on a pedistel yet you dont put yourself on any sort of setting.

I don't put myself on any sort of setting...well gee TMA I guess you just have me all figured out.....

Again you judge christians when you dont even know the deeper docterns of christianity.

How do you know what I know exactly?

As for Xianity....which one?

This is exactly why I admit my ignorance in many debates like the evolution one. What place would I have to debate something I am absolutely ignorant in?

You will always be a little ignorant in a debate, as will I, as will a scientist trained for ten years in biology. The only choice we have is if we are going to let that paralyze us or dive in and learn along the way.Your opinions may always be wrong but you can change them as you go along. That's how you learn and grow and that's why you participate in debate, even if you are ignorant, excericising some reservation of course but continuing nonetheless.

and tehn judge other people in a subject I am clueless in? Christians shouldnt be put on a pedistel, you obviously dont know the docterns because christ has constantly stated that we are just as bad as all other people, you honestly think we think we are better than others?

I never said Xians are better then others and I know according to some doctrines man is saved through faith and not works. However you still promote a morality and belief system which many Xians judge others by, many wish to even make it law. And if you are going to tell me that you have a moral code, but just break it whenever conveniant or can choose not to follow it on whim I have to question your sincerity. As well as the legitimacy of such a moral code.

I'm not putting anyone on a higher pedestal then anyone else, I'm just saying if you put forth standards you should at least follow these standards yourself, or at least to a reasonable level.

We fail and do stupid and harmful things, but we have christ to forgive, that is the whole point. Christianity is not a belief of action and reaction, it is a belief of forgiveness. The only sin that is unpardinable is that of disbelief.

So then any sort of immorality is ok: murder, rape, burglary, child molestation, genocide. And the only sin: disbelief.

That's not morality, that's thought control. That's a blank check to do whatever bad thing you want. How can you then, if you do, claim Xianity promotes morals when it gives the believer a get out of jail free card?

According to that reasoning any Nazi who orchestrated the death camp operations and asked for forgiveness gets off scott free.

Whereas all the Jews who died in the camp but didn't believe in Jesus, are now beyond forgiveness.

At this point my issue is not with hypocrisy, but with the morality itself. A morality that lets bad people get away with doing bad things and punishes good people merely for believing a different way is not a morality at all.

You just hate the fact that we have that barrier and you see it as arrogant.

I have no clue what you mean by barrier but I hate an ethical code that would sooner forgive and reward a murdering child-molestor then an upstanding buddhist who never harmed a soul in his life.

I dislike a moral code that says "Just do whatever the hell you want...and you'll get away with it...Jesus forgives."

Because that's no different then radical relativism or postmodernism. It's not morality, its pseudomorality.

I especially dislike any code that'd rather punish you on what you believe rather then what good or bad you do. Such a code is blatantly against everything america stands for, as freedom of conscience has been a core american/western value since this nations founding. And your beliefs would reduce it to nil. This is something that came from the dark ages or puritan days, not the enlightenment philosophy which has come to define western society.

In that sense your God is not so much a benevolent, just, deity: as much as It is a Stalin with magic powers.

[TMA_1]

Paul talks exactly onthe issue you have hit.

Should we just let ourselves go and let grace abound? no! Paul said this. we follow christ in order to have a higher understanding of our surroundings and to have a higher understanding of God who made these surroundings. It is too bad that a few ignorant people read only on the issue of perminant salvation, and leave out the rest of that huge book we call the bible.

There is a parable taught by christ. He talked about a man who needed to harvest his vineard, but had no workers. He then went to the town square and found some idle men, he asked them if they would work for him for one denarius, which is a days wages. So they went, he then went a bit later in the day and found more idle men and proposed the same deal. This happened a few more times till finally the last group of men only worked an hour in the vineard. When they were all paid they were all given the same amount of money. Some of the men who worked almost 12 hours were obviously upset since they saw men who only worked an hour got paid the same amount. THe master of the vineard scolded them and told them that it wasent their fault they came last. Indeed the last will be first and the first will be last.

You will never undrestand our doctern because you dont wish to understand our doctern. The idea of eternal salvation is the idea of complete fairness. YOu may laugh at this, but shouldnt a repentent man who murdered be able to redeem himself and come to christ? Read Les Miserables. It is a great story and teaches something. Some men will want to rape the salvation of others because they think it is unfair, but in reality all deserve the same amount of protection, no matter if they came late or not. Your catholic idea of salvation is a sign of the amount of grace you have man. If you want to understand doctern, then IM me or other good christians on this board, or any other good christian you know. Good is how you see it, but Good from the biblical standpoint is a christian who studies the bible and prays constantly,and who doesnt turn to liberalism or legalism to distort the Word of God. YOu need to open your midn to the word in ordre for you to understand it. This isnt a philosophy where you can screwtenize from afar. If you only study a little bit of it, you are ignorant of the entire part of it. I just had to get that out of the way.lol

I dont know what you know, I assume. THat is all I have and all I have to base myself on with your words. that is just an obvious fact. the "you dont know me" tactic is silly, and hypocritical considering you are debating me about me saying "You dont know my religion".

Oh, and on a sidenote, the fact that you call us xtians like the idiotic anton levay satanists is an obvious fact that you wont want to listen, maybe it is good taht you posted on this thread, you too need to open your ears.

[nemafakei]

"Oh, and on a sidenote, the fact that you call us xtians like the idiotic anton levay satanists is an obvious fact that you wont want to listen"

Or it could simply be bacause he wishes to abbreviate. I don't particularly like people saying things like 'xmas' either, but that has no bearing on people's open-mindedness.

[Phage]

Actually TMA Christians are the ones that first came up with the Xian abbreviation. I simply use it cause its shorter and the meaning is obvious.

Also your entire post was just ad hominem attacks. You obviously cannot reute any of my points so you dodge them.

Again why should an upstanding Jew go to hell, whereas former SS Xians now get off scott free?

You argue it to help ppl who were late, but what then about the ppl that were good all along, or their victims? They not matter?

Lastly your analogy is simply vaccuous and false. And your assumption about my understanding is very incorrect.

What necessary piece of information do you think I not understand? And how does that refute my arguments in any way? Why do you hide behind calling other people ignorant?

[nemafakei]

Remember also that it's not just a case of morality and understanding doctrine, but also of the question of whether or not there is an omnipotent entitiy in control... and no matter how flawless the dogma, its validity has no effect on the simple existance of this being.

Secondly, do try to explain what people do not understand about your faith - but preferably in another thread, so we can keep this one to discuss open-mindedness.

Thirdly, can we all try not to do too much finger-pointing...

[TMA_1]

Or it could simply be bacause he wishes to abbreviate. I don't particularly like people saying things like 'xmas' either, but that has no bearing on people's open-mindedness.

Hmm you are right, sorry about that phage. and yeah I will cool it down the finger pointing a bit.

Secondly, do try to explain what people do not understand about your faith - but preferably in another thread, so we can keep this one to discuss open-mindedness.

Would you mind if I wrote it in here? I really dont want to create my own thread, as it would sound and be pretty conceited on my part. if not just tell me. :)

[Phage]

Well I suppose I might but don't know if I can completely for certain reasons I feel best not to mention here. Also I don't consider my belief system to be in any way based on faith, least not in the religious/irrational sense, but reason completely.

[TMA_1]

that is an extremely bold, if not arrogant statement to say your opinion is based on "complete reason". what is your idea of reason, and it is impossible to claim to have ocmplete reason in any situation. that requires an almost computational (mentat ;) ) mind. I think you were reaching for the stars there.

[Phage]

No I think it requires only to base ideas on evidence and not faith. Not difficult at all really. I'm claiming based on reason btw, not infallible. Is it really more spectacular then to say ones idea is based on faith? Any more arrogant to say ones idea requires proof as opposed to saying one's idea is true without proof?