Fed2k Showdown: Religion

[Acriku]

And until you actually respond to any of the issues in this thread, feel free to keep your slander elsewheres.

[Scrinlord]

And what good things has religion done lately that cannot be achieved in any other way?

Here it is not a question of weather or not something else COULD do something, but weather or not they DID. While many people have the capability to do something, they do not do it, while the religious actually DO go out and do it.

Looks like you have some sorting out to do. The christian bible attacks the nonbelievers, calls them enemies that doeth no good, and yet tells you to love thy neighbor as thyself. If I was a christian I'd be asking my pastor this.

You can be enemies and disagree with each other, and still love them. The two things are not mutually exclusive. The bible states the fact that non-believers will not go to heaven, but you can love them even so. Me and my girlfriend disagree on many things, does that mean I cannot love her?

If you are referring to Stalin's acts, this was not an act of atheism. It was in fact an act of instilling order in his communist country. It nothing to do with atheism. It was his communism that made him abolish the churches in his country, because the churches caused disorder in his communist country. I don't know why this isn't hard to understand.

Religion, however, is directly responsible for its contribution to horrid acts that concern religion, such as the crusades. If, however, a religious president sends us to war against the Axis, then I would not blame religion because it does not concern religion. But let that be in another thread! This is not about that! I say right now that this rant can be fully justified by the religious acts committed in this current year and past 3 years. I have posted a small list above, read them if you will.

Ok, first of all, Communism is by definition an athiest system of government, so anything done in the name of communism is also being done in the name of athiesm.

And secondly, the Crusades were largely NOT a Christian opperation, except for a few people, such as the pope. The Crusades were political ploys by governments who wanted and needed somewhere else to expand to. They used Christanity as an excuse, but they were not following religion.

And Acriku, are you opposed to religion itself or to theology. I dislike religious institutions much of the time, because many of them seem to be out for nothing but money and prestige. But I believe in what the bible teaches. So I am opposed to the religious institutions much of the time, but not the religion itself.

[Acriku]

And what good things has religion done lately that cannot be achieved in any other way?

Here it is not a question of weather or not something else COULD do something, but weather or not they DID. While many people have the capability to do something, they do not do it, while the religious actually DO go out and do it.

Yes, they go out and force their religion on unexpecting victims as well. Like a virus or plague. But I can't blame them for that. Many people are secular humanists, and provide relief to humans all around the world. Compelling evidence that it can be done without religion. American and British Red Cross' are secular, and provide amazing relief to the world when it needs it. So yes, they do do it.

You can be enemies and disagree with each other, and still love them. The two things are not mutually exclusive. The bible states the fact that non-believers will not go to heaven, but you can love them even so. Me and my girlfriend disagree on many things, does that mean I cannot love her?

Let's be reasonable. They call the nonbelievers wicked, thee that doeth no good, fools, evil, like a greedy lion, how does that equate to love? If I was truly following what the bible said, I would hate the atheists with a passion because that the bible continually makes them off to be inferior and automatically evil. This is a method of control, to make the opposers, directly and indirectly, out to be falsely evil and automatically an enemy.

Ok, first of all, Communism is by definition an athiest system of government, so anything done in the name of communism is also being done in the name of athiesm.

Rediculous. Just because it is not a theocracy (religion government), everything it does is automatically in the name of atheism? Completely rediculous. Is America's doing in the name of atheism? I guess this Iraqi war is in the name of atheism!

And secondly, the Crusades were largely NOT a Christian opperation, except for a few people, such as the pope. The Crusades were political ploys by governments who wanted and needed somewhere else to expand to. They used Christanity as an excuse, but they were not following religion.

Didn't I say that this was not for this thread? Follow directions!

And Acriku, are you opposed to religion itself or to theology. I dislike religious institutions much of the time, because many of them seem to be out for nothing but money and prestige. But I believe in what the bible teaches. So I am opposed to the religious institutions much of the time, but not the religion itself.

Well theology is just the study of religions, and their gods. What do I have against that? Study all you want. So I am opposed to religion itself. Religion is used to control people, to rediculously restrict people from things like pork, and going to work on Sundays, and is outdated in the most orthodox of ways.

[Caid Ivik]

Christianity may speak about being brothers and sisters, but then again we have intolerant verses such as:

2 John 10

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed.

Psalms 14:1

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Exodus 12:45

A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. [passover]

Exodus 19:5

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: [israelites]

2 Peter 3:7

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

1 John 5:19

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

1 John 2:22

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Phillipians

2:10

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

2:11

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Well, I've promised I won't use it against you, but you seems to want it...

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

- 2 Pt 1,20

[Timenn]

But that's just the thing Timenn. Religious poeple do harm others, and that is not right.

I'm not harmed by most people having a religion. But some harm others indeed. But you are forgetting that people who believe and harm, are often abused by people who only want power (like the church)

So let people believe what they want, because when you opress people in that you only amplify the reason to believe. But you must try to abolish all organisations who abuse the believers to gain power (like the church in the dark ages (and now too sometimes), or people like Osama Bin Laden (It's not the islam you should fight, but the people who abuse it)

[Dude_Doc]

I could go on forever in this thread. I don't know why you are so "in" with going against religion, and even if this may sound crazy, it is dangerous. Once you begin to hate something, YOU will blindly hate it until every person connected to religion is your "enemy" as well. Or maybe I've mistaken the whole reason why you make posts like this?

[nampigai]

Why making such a big deal about what others believe? As long as they don't harm others with it, it's right

You should all listen to this guy. I don't understand why all you unbelievers and believers try to convert each other, it's a personal thing.

[Dude_Doc]

Exactly.

[Acriku]

When did I ever try to convert any of you? When did I say people can't believe? You guys are either not reading what I am saying, or you misunderstand what I am saying.

So let people believe what they want, because when you opress people in that you only amplify the reason to believe.

Timenn, I letting people believe what they want, but I am also showing them the dangers of it and the effects of people believing.

NaMp, I addressed that comment already :P

[Dante]

So let people believe what they want, because when you opress people in that you only amplify the reason to believe.

Timenn, I letting people believe what they want, but I am also showing them the dangers of it and the effects of people believing.

Perhaps they resent that and see it as an intrusion. Much as you seem to see religion as an intrusion into your own life.

[Acriku]

There's a big difference between shouting heresy and intrusion of the government, board of education, and business. If my heresy bothers them, then they can either make it so they aren't bothered, or don't read the heresy that bothers them so much.

[Dante]

If their religion bothers you, then you can either make it so you aren't bothered, or don't read the religion that bothers you so much.

(N.B. I actually agree with you, Acriku, but I like to argue points I feel are less than secure). ;)

[Acriku]

That would've worked well for the white supremacists in the times where blacks were discriminated against. If you don't like being discriminated because you're black, make it so you're not bothered or go away.

[Dante]

I used your logic to prove a point and now you're doing it again...? Not only that, but I really can't see the connection.

[nemafakei]

What Acriku is trying to say is he's being oppressed - others are actively discriminating against him for his religion; he is doing nothing. Therefore, he proposes that they should leave him alone; you reply be saying he should leave them alone... which he is already doing. If I understand correctly.

[Dante]

Perhaps mutual indifference is the only option...

[Phage]

I'm not sure what the pro-religion argument was. Was it that religion is true, or untrue but still useful? Or true and useful?

If the second, then that's just saying systematic lying can self-deception is useful. I grant that, but secularists can do that too.

More importantly though, is that a path we wish to take? Sounds like it could easily backfire.

[Acriku]

I'm not being oppressed, it's others that are being oppressed and that really pisses me off.

[Dante]

But it's none of your business. Why should you care?

[Phage]

Well a moral person is going to care, that's what morality, virtue and good will are about. If ppl took the "I don't care" attitude we'd all be speaking German.

[Acriku]

None of my business? The hell it isn't! I am a secular humanist and I believe that nobody should be discriminated against. I cannot understand how you can say that someone being discriminated against is none of my business. Especially when it happens in the supposedly Land of the Free.

[Dante]

It isn't your business because you are not directly involved. I'm not saying that you're wrong, merely that it isn't your affair to intrude on.

[Acriku]

I am directly involved, I am an atheist living in a country where religious people are allowed to discriminate against me, and where god shows up everywhere I look, and where my education may be compromised or my children's education because some religious nuts think creation should be in schools and evolution out.

[Dante]

Ok. You win. :)

[DukeLeto]

To state my opinion as clearly as possible, I will use the immortal words of the great Karl Marx:

"Religion...is the opium of the masses."

Also: "Religion is all bunk." -Thomas Edison.