Jesus, Moses and Muhammed

[Emperor Harkonnen]

@Emp Hark: do you have a problem with muslims? Looking at your posts in Duniverse and here it certainly seems that way.

no I do not got any problems with muslims I am just tired of people always focusing on the wrong sides of christianity compared to other religions, and making it look like muslims and other cultures are so much "richer" and better than our western christian culture. That is the impression I get when I read stuff in magazines and history books. I think that no culture is better than the other and they need to stop saying such even though the western countries has oppressed other cultures in the past.

You can read stuff like glorious conquest of the muslims or so, but would they say anything like that about any western conquest of any non-western countries?

it is like if I critizise islam or any other cultures just a bit then you have to be totally against it. that is how it is. If you are gonna critizise something it has got to be your own culture. >:( I think we have heard enough about how horrible we was to other countries here in the west.

[gunner154]

By the way do not confuse our muslims with those wretches in Al-Qaeda. those fellows are radicals and intepret the Quran in a way for their own good.

And I'm a Catholic, not a Muslim.

[leo]

By the way do not confuse our muslims with those wretches in Al-Qaeda. those fellows are radicals and intepret the Quran in a way for their own good.

And I'm a Catholic, not a Muslim.

And only the Muslims in Al-qaeda are radicals? Look at the conflicts around the world, u will see that most of the time Muslims are involved. The problem is not Arabs but the hole Muslim world- Chechnya, Afghanistan, Philippines, Malaysia and so on. You can see that the problem is not one or two Muslim Resistance groups but global. There is no Compassion in them, they can't stand back in any condition. Their pride and hate are their motives. I myself from Israel, I live among them. We always pushed towards peace but what we got from the other side? Suicide bombers in busses, clubs, markets etc.

[gunner154]

uhh, ok. i didn't take those in mind. but i was specifically talking about the muslims in those Arab countries, like Osama (ok i don't watch the news often so this is what i know :P)

Also, not all Muslims are bad :) if they were, Singapore would be destroyed long time ago by its neighbours.

[leo]

lol do u know how many times Israeli's neighbours tried to destroy us? and still trying. BTW as i mentioned above your neighbours are not so great either, IE Philippines and Malaysia. In those countries there is an obviouse growing Resistance from the Muslims. This conflict does not affects u cause the government is not radical, yet.

[Caid Ivik]

Muhammad was a bandit, who thought about Jews as his trading concurence. As their communities were too strong and had more mercenaries, he started with demagogical religion based on banishing the judaism. Result? We can see still today. 1975, Arab countries drastically raise the cost of oil as a vengeance for US aid for Israel in Jom Kippur War.

At Jesus' time, christianity wasn't there. So, how could he spread it with love or hate? He was a normal jew who said he was the messiah (which wasn't rare, it happened quite a bit during his time).

Even in Talmud is written that "preaching of Jesus shouldn't be fully banished by his teachers". Tractate "Sanhedrin", I think. Passage was later censored by inquisition.

[leo]

Muhammad was a bandit, who thought about Jews as his trading concurence. As their communities were too strong and had more mercenaries, he started with demagogical religion based on banishing the judaism. Result? We can see still today. 1975, Arab countries drastically raise the cost of oil as a vengeance for US aid for Israel in Jom Kippur War.

At Jesus' time, christianity wasn't there. So, how could he spread it with love or hate? He was a normal jew who said he was the messiah (which wasn't rare, it happened quite a bit during his time).

Even in Talmud is written that "preaching of Jesus shouldn't be fully banished by his teachers". Tractate "Sanhedrin", I think. Passage was later censored by inquisition.

How do u know so much about Judaism? first time i see some1 on the forum who actually knows what's Talmud. BTW, nice signature. :)

[Egeides]

leo, what do you think about sionist colonies?

[leo]

leo, what do you think about sionist colonies?

Colonies? u mean to the settlements in the palestine territories?

[Egeides]

Well yes. What else :P

[leo]

Well i'm strongly oppose them, they bring nothing but headaches to israel. However i believe Jews has the right to live in the palestine territories just as over a million Arabs live today in israel. the only problem is that if a jew will be spoted in a palestinian city he will be slaughtered, in conrtast to Israel- a democratic coutnry. Due to the Palestine aggression the jews need to be protected so they build "colonies". But I oppose those steps, as I mentioned.

[Caid Ivik]

I would say the west coast of Jordan was regularily conqered by Israel, so they have full right to establish some settlements. Arabs should make some villages for those thousands of refugees too. In their camps are many people for third generation! That's a problem, not colonies.

How do u know so much about Judaism? first time i see some1 on the forum who actually knows what's Talmud. BTW, nice signature. :)

We have some common roots, leo...

[Acriku]

Acriku, I propose you get a look at Humes... One thing he said is that to know everything ABOUT something is not to know the thing itself. Knowing everything surrounding feelings makes you know nothing about the essence of feelings themselves.

The feeling itself is felt, it is not a movement of particles. What is "feeling"?

And besides... Perhaps I should refer you to an American cult book (within certain circles) from a few decades ago. It's called Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It's discussing the rational and its limits, logic, the nature of rationality, etc. Also enters in religions (versus rationalism, taoism...). It's a "novel" describing the author's life but it's strong dope, not sugar. All about rationality and it could change totally your view as it did for many (it's very loaded).

Egeides you missed one important thing. I experienced these feelings before. I know what spiritual love is, because I felt it when I believed! Considering this, Humes does not apply.

[Egeides]

No, I'm not speaking about spiritual feelings!! I'm talking in logic, in rationality! The being itself is not inherently all the caracteristics that apply to this being. Something is not the caracteristics that is applied to it, it is in itself something else.

I could say this about anything, like a motorcycle: you may describe the motorcycle as much as you want, you know only what comes from it to you, not what it is. This has NOTHING to do with mysticism.

[Acriku]

I beg to differ. The attributes of the item is what the item is. Back and forth, to and fro. What is a circle? Check out the attributes. Now look at the attributes of a square, but don't think of a square. Now what is it? A square. To and fro.

[Egeides]

If I describe your person and say you are acting like this, of this physical appearance and so on, is this YOU or is simply what I perceive? I believe taoism gets into this. What you feel like, is it the description itself or is the description only a language used to transfer information to someone else so he can translate back to what it is? Is the concept the thing itself or is it only what your mind analyses of it? No time to go further now but anyway, hope I'm understood.

Perhaps you should get the book I said and read the first 50 pages to see... It's the best book I read about rationality and the unification of all thinking schools.

[Acriku]

So, what else could it be? And where do you go from there? Rationality is a process, so where is this going?

[Hawat]

Hawat, just because some people falsely believed in the messiah does not make him special. Do you know why they believed him? I don't either. But don't make the assumption that he had anythng special. What he preached was what any pharasaic (spelled wrong, I know) Jew would preach.

And if people really took him seriously, they wouldn't have a computer to post on forums...

I'll respond to this. It was, be it in retaliation or whatnot, christianity that motivated the crusades. A holy crusade to rid of all infidel muslims? Yeah, christianity had nothing to do with that ::)

Acriku, i think you really don't want to understand what i wanted to explain. I didn't start my argumentation with "he was special because people believed in him"... you told about other "messiahs" and that the Jesus-Phenomenon weren't that uncommon. I just think if a whole religion is based on one person, he must have preached something special. Why do he have still so many believers? Surely not because he was just a jew, that preached according to the pharisees' laws.

btw, when he really preached the same as the pharisees, why did they kill him?

Your derision is amusing... As long as we don't have the same definition of "christianity" there is no sense in discussing the crusades.

*lol* Why should i not be allowed to use a computer to post on forums?

[Acriku]

It didn't start as a whole major religion. It was a small cult before Constantine adopted it as the main religion. It's Constantine who you should be praising. Jesus didn't do anything, Constantine made what christianity is today.

And the romans killed him, why you ask? I don't really know. Because he claimed he was the messiah, maybe the romans killed all of the said-messiahs. This is all hearsay on what we are talking about anyways.

Christianity, the religion. It did have a lot to do with the Crusades, and that's obvious. Tell me how it doesn't.

You shouldn't have this computer if you followed Jesus completely, because I believe he taught that if there are poor people with less than you, you should strip yourself of the riches and give to the poor. I guess some people pick and choose what they want to follow.

[Hawat]

Yeah, of course it is all hearsay when you leave the only book that holds an description out of the discussion. Then there's no sense in "discussing" further...

But Constantin didn't add anything to the main message, though many compromises with the old theistic cultures were made.

So it is still Jesus who created the foundation. Well technically im not praising him. I just wanted to point out the obvious and draw some possible conclusions from that.

I don't know how many times you heard that sentence before, but i will repeat it: The bible (especially the NT) don't tell a christian to go out and kill pagans. If you respect that and look at historical documents wich show that the church seeked more "secular" power you could think that this was more politics than religion.

Btw, religion is a negative term in my eyes. I said that also in a past thread, where i also posted my reasons for that.

You "believe" that he told that? Then read again and try to ENGAGE the meaning of that and respect the whole tenor of the bible.

Perhaps we should just settle this, we are moving away from the original intention of this thread. At last it remains a question of personal faith...

[Caid Ivik]

It didn't start as a whole major religion. It was a small cult before Constantine adopted it as the main religion. It's Constantine who you should be praising. Jesus didn't do anything, Constantine made what christianity is today.

And the romans killed him, why you ask? I don't really know. Because he claimed he was the messiah, maybe the romans killed all of the said-messiahs. This is all hearsay on what we are talking about anyways.

Christianity, the religion. It did have a lot to do with the Crusades, and that's obvious. Tell me how it doesn't.

You shouldn't have this computer if you followed Jesus completely, because I believe he taught that if there are poor people with less than you, you should strip yourself of the riches and give to the poor. I guess some people pick and choose what they want to follow.

If Constantinus accepted it as a state religion, it couldn't be just a small cult. This "cult" was hold for 300 years, with communities, still larger and larger, around whole Empire. Look at Jews, they were oppresses by them, as well as anyone other, and they survived. Did they need Empire? It is thing of not secular power, but of teachings.

Romans executed Jesus from one reason: he was an influental native leader.

Christianity was a core for Church. Leaders of Church led the organisation to become a military superpower with imperial ambitions. That's all, Jesus saw a difference between caesar and God...

Maybe this computer is like a legs, with which I walk with him. Open eyes, Acriku, why do you think I'm posting here? ;)