Old Testament

[Acriku]

I've been confused for quite a while now, so hopefully you can help me out on this one. Lately I've been reading followers of the NT criticizing the OT for being all about death and destruction, and how the laws do not apply anymore; so do you believe in the OT as you do the NT?

[Hawat]

I don't actually know people that criticize the old testament, but if you ask me they're refusing an important part of the bible. Though the OT has only little importance in the believe of salvation in the New Testament, it's an important historical document and has many as well important teachings. Now i have to be a little radical... If people claim that the old law doesn't apply anymore, they simply didn't understand an essential fragment of the new salvation through christ.

To answer your question directly: I wouldn't give the OT the same importance as the NT, but critizing it is simply wrong.

[Dunenewt]

Is this from a Christain perspective as Muslims and Jews both follow the OT

[Hawat]

mmh... don't mistake it. The Muslims don't follow the OT, they accept as a document, but nothing more... Their believe is founden on the Quran (or whatever the spelling is...) and the verbal teachings of mohammend. The Jews only have the Thora (five books of moses) and the prophetical books (including the psalms). So the christians are the only ones who are using the OT in this form.

[Acriku]

The laws they were referring to were the punishments for disobeying the commandments, the allowance of slavery, etc. Of course, they must group all laws of the OT to be consistent, and not just picky.

And of course it is from a christian perspective, but if you have something to add, then by all means join in the discussion :)

Are you sure the Torah is not the OT? I've always been told that in my synagogue, and that the jews during the time of Jesus followed the OT. Meh?

[Hawat]

Totally sure that the Thora is not the whole OT, as the christians use it. As i said it is only the five books of Moses, so it is the religious guideline for jews, the Talmud adds a lot of traditional jurisdiction and rules for interpretation and preaching of the Thora. The Old Testament is a christian "invention", the rest of the OT are documents that were not used as religious scripture by the jews.

Hmm... But perhaps we should just look on a website that explains the jewish religion, instead of discussing now the detail of it.

Ooops, i thought of the commandments as you wrote "laws". *Must be me still thinking in german*. Ok forget the second part of my first post.

[zamboe]

Actually there has been (still until today) a debate over OT.

Catholic Church recognized bible has 5 more books in the OT than the Protestan Church does. Protestan Church has denied the historical and teological value of those 5 books.

I'd post the names if I'd knew how to write them in english.

[Hawat]

Hmm, perhaps you think of the apocrypha (1 & 2 Book of Macabees, Prayer of Manasseh, Judith, Jesus Sirach, Baruch) ?

I don't know if we are thinking of the same books...

Anyways, this apocryphas are just "late scriptures (translation of the name). In the newer german Luther bibles you find them as addition between the OT and the NT

[Caid Ivik]

Books of Maccabi, Judit and Sirach are regular parts of OT canon. Alexandrian Septuaginta hasn't only Maccabi books, maybe because they are rather helenophobic. About Book of Josue, son Sirach (not Jesus, that's a greek form, as well as Maria is a greek form of jewish Miriam), it is one of the mostly read and used book of OT.

Also all prophecies, on which is NT based, are from OT, so without it, we can't talk about some divinity in Jesus' tale and preaching. Christians accept even the Books of Moses as Tora, the Law. Our view is based on the well-known Jesus' hill preaching:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." - Mt 5,17

[Egeides]

I consider the OT in two ways first of all:

1- Strict historical aspect (for historians, to a certain extent)

2- Christianity's "litterary" history

Secondly, I also consider that the NT is a "paste on the OT" but a part of wisdom is still left as valid, the part that doesn't oppose the NT. I'm not exactly sure of everything for this part.

[zamboe]

I'll correct my previous statment, the controversy is in fact in 7 books of the OT, not 5 books as I incorrectly said before. You can compare the bible of Jerusalem and Valera Queen for example.

[TMA_1]

I believe the old testament as true and good just as much as the old testament, but on a different level. See, christians came after the death of christ and that ended the covenent with the jews, forty years later they had to move from nation to nation, only god took care of them because they were hated by every nation, sick if you ask me. So what happened was christ fulfilled the laws and prophesy. For instance the temple and the tabernacle were signs of the messiah, the colors, the fabrics, the tools and items, even the sacrifice. They all pointed to him but christ didnt come yet so they had to worship the future messiah. they werent technically paid for yet sin wise, (just a formality), so all they had to do was believe in the future messiah, the sign and the incarnation of the laws and covenants of the jews. The laws were a kind of tutor, paul said. They showed us that we are sinners, and that we could never follow the law and that we needed a messiah to clense us of sin. That finally happened so the law was not needed anymore, Those that were afixed to dietary laws, laws of sacrifice, those of how to live daily life. We didnt need those.Still, we follow the laws of morality and justice because christ said and showed us how to live and those fulfilled the law! see? we have a reason for all of this, you will learn if you want to learn.

[Caid Ivik]

Both Jews and christians created a "second level". As we have New Testament, they have Talmud and Mishna, altough we, as well as they, don't believe in its divinity. Some kind of 3rd level may be next philosophical teachings of Augustin, Thomas Aquinus, Maimonides etc., which were confirmed by spiritual leaders as true descriptions of the holier books.