An Agnostic is an Atheist

[Acriku]

My claim right now is that an agnostic is an atheist. Allow me to explain.

An agnostic is, typically, one who suspends judgement of knowing whether or not a god exists, because the supernatural is not knowable to the human mind. A theist is one who believes in a god or gods. An atheist is "without-theist" or "without-a belief in a god or gods".

Now, agnosticism is not a middle option. It deals with the issue of knowledge of the supernatural, while atheism/theism deals with the issue of a belief, or lack thereof, in a god or gods. Now, (conscerning those who choose agnosticism over atheism/theism) because agnostics cannot say that god is true, thus not having a belief in god (or they would be theists, and not agnostics), they are atheists.

So, people who take their stance as agnostic, are atheists, because they do not hold the belief in a god or gods.

Post your thoughts.

[Zopwx2]

what are you trying to prove. that agnostics are ahteists? anyway. if someone has made up thier mind that there is a god, no amount of evidence is going to change their mind. I mean how are you supposed to dissprove an "all powerfull being that created the universe". ::)

[Caid Ivik]

You have bought a dictionary, Acriku? I think you don't need to make next explanations.

[Warlord Ripskar]

The fundamental difference between an athieist and an agnostic is the athieist believes there is no possibility of a deity whilst an agnostic believes he doesn't know whether there is a deity or not.

I contend that athieists are really agnostics without the experience to realise that could be knowledge beyond their understanding.

[Inoculator9]

That is not always the case. I am completely open to the possibility, but as of yet have not recieved sufficient reason to. Atheists take many forms.

[Acriku]

Zop - not trying to prove anything, just that people who take the stance of an agnostic over a theist or an atheist, are essentially atheists because they do not hold the belief of a god or gods. If they did, they would be called a theist.

I have two at home Caid, how many do you have? ;D

Ripskar, an atheist does not believe tha there is no possibility of a deity. That is a form of an atheist, but an atheist without any strings is one who does not hold a belief in a god or gods. That's all there is to it. Agnosticism is not another option between theism and atheism. It deals with the issue of knowledge, not a belief in a god or gods. You are an agnostic, very well, but do you hold a belief in a god or gods? No, so you are an agnostic atheist. Welcome! I am one, too. :)

To what post are you referring to Inoc?

[Caid Ivik]

If you have dictionaries, why do you need to discuss about a word with such straight definition? I would even say the agonsticism is like a higher form of atheism: not only lack of believing in God, but also against any other "higher power". Worse form is just nihilism, which believes in nothing.

[Acriku]

I need to discuss it because there are misconceptions out in the world, and I intend to destroy them with my charm and caresse. ;)

Agnosticism is not a form of atheism, it is on another issue that has nothing to do with atheism/theism. Just like atheism and theism describe a person's belief or lack thereof, agnosticism and gnosticism describe a person's capability of knowing or lack thereof.

[Caid Ivik]

That globe on your avatar or some couple of letters aren't so charming to change the world...

[Acriku]

Change the world? Oh I wouldn't be so bigheaded to think I can do that from here, but if it helps the people here, and they can help the people who talk to them about it, and so on, perhaps, just perhaps Caid, I can make a difference. bwaha! ;D

[Caid Ivik]

Talking about what exactly word "agnostic" mean can help me? I know what it mean and I felt same taste of life even when I didn't know it some years before.

[Acriku]

Perhaps an excert from Atheism: Case Against God can help:

Properly considered, agnosticism is not a third alternative to theism and atheism because it is concerned with a different aspect of religious belief. Theism and atheism refer to the presence or absence of belief in a god; agnosticism refers to the impossibility of knowledge with regard to a god or supernatural being.

The term "agnostic" does not, in itself, indicate whether or not one believes in a god. Agnosticism can be either theistic or atheistic.

[Caid Ivik]

So, and what fascinating conclusion have you found with that?

[Acriku]

Perhaps a look at the topic will help you? ;)

[Caid Ivik]

You've concluded it just now? Then, ok, congratulations ;D

[Acriku]

Another thing I have noticed:

An agnostic has the proposition that it is impossible to know regarding the existence of a god or gods. He proposes the truth of this proposition. But, then again - how does he know? Ah, something to get your minds churning.

[Egeides]

Agnosticism is to not believe you know if God exists. Atheism is to belive you know that he doesn't.

Acriku, don't you think atheism is exclusive of agnosticism??? ???

[Edric O]

So, Acriku, are you really just arguing semantics again, or trying to make yourself feel better by claiming that there are more people on the side of atheism?

Or maybe it's a little bit of both...

[Inoculator9]

It's always a little bit of both, for everyone.

And to Acriku... I was refering to Ripskar's post, mostly the first part though. Basically siding with you, by saying that Atheists don't necessarily rule out the possibility of a deity.

[Acriku]

Egeides that is not what an atheist is. All an atheist is, by definition, is a person without a belief in a god or gods. They don't have to know, or don't know, whether or not such a god or gods does exist. I am an agnostic atheist, I feel the generic creator is impossible at the moment to provide evidence for, or against. It is not exclusive.

Edric, this isn't semantics. My definitions are real, and not technical. People seem to misunderstand the meanings of the word atheist and agnostic, probably from the old "The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none that does good." Psalms 14. I

And no, I am not trying to get more on my side. They were already an atheist before I posted this. Do you deny these definitions?

Ok Inoc, got confused :)

[Edric O]

My point, Acriku, is that you're arguing over what should a certain group of people be called. You're saying that it's incorrect to call them agnostics, and they should be included in the category of atheists.

But what I'm trying to say is: Who cares? Whether they call themselves agnostics or agnostic atheists or yutgshfrsdgpq's or whatever, that doesn't change what they believe (or don't believe).

[Acriku]

Edric, it is to awaken the sleeper within, so-to-speak. To inform them. Not herd them into the atheist cage. A lot of people call themselves agnostics for a long while, until they realize - wait a minute, this evil atheist has the exact same views as me, but I'm an agnostic! Or am I? I might be an atheist! I never knew that. This is wonderful, atheists aren't so bad after all. My day is made!

Or something like that.

You wouldn't care because I am not referring to you. But others might care.

I'm not arguing over what they should be called, I'm informing them about what they are. It isn't incorrect to call them agnostics, hell I call myself an agnostic, but an agnostic atheist.

[TMA_1]

Atheism is the rejection of a deity or deities. Agnosticism is the idea that because there is insufficiant data, that you cannot conferm or deny an existance of a deity or deities. You are just putting your own idea that you came up with about how athiesm isnt a rejection of deities or a deity. This is so completely ignorant that it has made a new low.lol

akricu, I have showed this to two of my friends. One of them is vance and he is an agnostic. He is probably one of the smartest guys I know and he absolutely disagrees with this idea.

another friend of mine is Noah, a guy that skipped two grades and went to various gifted schools. He then got a full ride scholership to Pepperdine university in California. He is also an agnostic and this is a quote from him. "that is the funniest bulls**t I have seen in a while".

Ignorant man. to the point of comedy. I am putting this down because it is just so dumb.

[Acriku]

Atheism is the rejection of a deity or deities.

Wrong.

Agnosticism is the idea that because there is insufficiant data, that you cannot conferm or deny an existance of a deity or deities.

Correct. Good job. Atleast you got one out of two correct.

You are just putting your own idea that you came up with about how athiesm isnt a rejection of deities or a deity. This is so completely ignorant that it has made a new low.lol

Glad you could make it, hope you enjoy the party. Inappropriate insults on your left, and some kegs of ad hoc's on your right. Hope you have a designated driver.

akricu, I have showed this to two of my friends. One of them is vance and he is an agnostic. He is probably one of the smartest guys I know and he absolutely disagrees with this idea.

Appeal to authority, tsk tsk TMA.

another friend of mine is Noah, a guy that skipped two grades and went to various gifted schools. He then got a full ride scholership to Pepperdine university in California. He is also an agnostic and this is a quote from him. "that is the funniest bulls**t I have seen in a while".

Same thing. That's two tma, let's see if you make it again.

Ignorant man. to the point of comedy. I am putting this down because it is just so dumb.

TMA looks the left, looks to the right, the path is clear down to the endzone. Charly scrambles upon the other team to get free, TMA arches back, passes, Charly grabs the ball runs to the endzone, and scores! Woooo! TMA : 10000 Ad hocs vs. Acriku : 0 TMA wins!

[Edric O]

If you're an agnostic [atheist], Acriku, I'm the Pope! :) You are the most hardcore anti-religionist that ever posted on the FED2k forums!

Acriku, let me show you the kind of thing that I consider irrelevant:

...but I'm an agnostic! Or am I? I might be an atheist! I never knew that.

Did this person change his views? No, not even slightly. He just decided to stick a different label on himself. So what difference does it make?

And btw, how exactly can someone be an agnostic theist?