Is God perfect?

[DjCiD]

Well the Trinity does say that he was one in three. The Father (God) The Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. Like a clover how each leaf is separate they are still the same whole.

I still try and wrap my mind around not only how hard it was for Jesus to allow himself to be hung on the cross but how hard it was for his Father to watch him do it. I don't have all the answers but believe I know someone who does, and one I will ask him when I leave for Home.

[Acriku]

The Holy Trinity was a catholic idea to make things fit, not to say it is any less "correct" ;)

Take your time, I'll be here.

[sneezer3]

edit: i din't mean "other stuff" i ment like everthing but what you were saiyng.

And how do you know he had free will? If he was god, then everything was already known, and it was part of this "big plan" that people always seem to talk about. So tell me how can free will be a part of the picture?

God is an infinite being. He has free will and his plan will all make since in the end.

A test? Oh brother not another test! Just like the dinosaur bones are a test of our faith? Hehehe!

Dinosaurs are in the Bible. There are no dinosaur bones that prove evolution that haven't been debunked.(not to go off topic but you wanted a responce)

Anyway Jesus went though many tests and temptations.

I don't see how being an atheist means I will instantly become id-dominant, seeking everywhere for pleasure, and humping my neighbor's dog? I will be an atheist as a freethinker. As a man of reason and logic. Will I worship something as phony as Zeus and Jove? No. If you will, fine then. May your soul rest well in heaven while I'm burning in hell.

I was thinking about something when i was reading a few days ago.

Jesus attacked other religions and the Bible attacks other religions. This alone should show you something. Think about it.. If there was a true religion wouldn't it want all the other people to know the others are false? Not only that but its been around the longest.(aside from Judeism which was renewed in the New Testament).

[sneezer3]

The Holy Trinity was a catholic idea to make things fit, not to say it is any less "correct" ;)

Take your time, I'll be here.

Well, its in the Bible.

1 John 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

[nemafakei]

If there were no god, man would find it necessary to invent one.

But if there were no man, would god find it necessary to invent one?

[sneezer3]

Well we'r here. God sees in infinitey and has his reasons, we'l know them one day..

[Acriku]

edit: i din't mean "other stuff" i ment like everthing but what you were saiyng.

And how do you know he had free will? If he was god, then everything was already known, and it was part of this "big plan" that people always seem to talk about. So tell me how can free will be a part of the picture?

God is an infinite being. He has free will and his plan will all make since in the end.

You are just repeating yourself. Listen, if god knows all that is going to happen, there is no free will. Free will cannot exist in perfection. Impossible, logically.But that's assuming perfection is a real thing, in which it is not, as Timenn has shown.

Dinosaurs are in the Bible. There are no dinosaur bones that prove evolution that haven't been debunked.(not to go off topic but you wanted a responce)

Anyway Jesus went though many tests and temptations.

Dinosaurs are not in the bible. There is no definitive sign of dinosaurs, and dinosaurs could not have been walking with human beings. Also, how do you rebunk dinosaur bones? Sure, hoaxes. But those are minimal. You are ignorant about the entire process, but make another thread if you want to comment on this.

I was thinking about something when i was reading a few days ago.

Jesus attacked other religions and the Bible attacks other religions. This alone should show you something. Think about it.. If there was a true religion wouldn't it want all the other people to know the others are false? Not only that but its been around the longest.(aside from Judeism which was renewed in the New Testament).

Well that is reasonable. But if Jesus attacked other religions, how is he tolerant?

[sneezer3]

You are just repeating yourself. Listen, if god knows all that is going to happen, there is no free will. Free will cannot exist in perfection. Impossible, logically.But that's assuming perfection is a real thing, in which it is not, as Timenn has shown.

Well, you know whats going to happen because you know everthing. There is still free-will there, you know what your going to do but you don't have to do it. Jesus din't have to die on the cross he could have done something about it but chose not to.

Perfect means flawless, you can do no wrong yet remain with your free will.

Ok if that don't do it then i must have misunderstood you. :-

Dinosaurs are not in the bible. There is no definitive sign of dinosaurs, and dinosaurs could not have been walking with human beings. Also, how do you rebunk dinosaur bones? Sure, hoaxes. But those are minimal. You are ignorant about the entire process, but make another thread if you want to comment on this.

Have been debunked. i just can't type these days. :P

Well there in the Bible, if i find the exact passeges i'l let you know.

Well that is reasonable. But if Jesus attacked other religions, how is he tolerant?

He is but just not towards false religions or ways to heaven.

[Acriku]

Well, you know whats going to happen because you know everthing. There is still free-will there, you know what your going to do but you don't have to do it. Jesus din't have to die on the cross he could have done something about it but chose not to.

Here lies your flaw: If he knows what is going to happen, he can't change it, because if he does, then he would have seen that as what he would have done. No free will.

Perfect means flawless, you can do no wrong yet remain with your free will.

There can not even be the possibility of doing wrong. If you do it, then you become imperfect. Imperfection cannot come from perfection, otherwise it wouldn't be perfection in the first place (i.e. able to be imperfect).

[Miles]

Jesus had free will and he chose to be perfect. ;)

You call it playing us when it's really a test. You can have all the knowledge now and lose your soul or you can wait and have both. Will you let your Id be satisfied and succumb to instant gratification or will you hold out and finish the race first?

If god is perfect and all knowing, then why the test?

[sneezer3]

The Bible says Jesus is sovereign. He could have decided to do something else, Jesus picked to do what he did do of his on free will. if he wanted to do something else he would have done something else and known all along he was going to do something else. an example Jesus said "No man taketh my life but i give it freely" as he put his hand on the cross.

There can not even be the possibility of doing wrong. If you do it, then you become imperfect. Imperfection cannot come from perfection, otherwise it wouldn't be perfection in the first place (i.e. able to be imperfect).

Almost got me, preety hard one. :)

But the most perfect would be one who decided to be perfect by free-will, with the possibility of not being perfect to prove he was God.(thus perfection)

it'l all make since in the end. you've probbly heard the example of Mr flat and why we can't understand God.

[sneezer3]

If god is perfect and all knowing, then why the test?

I don't understand the question. ???

[Acriku]

How do you decide to be perfect? And how do you know god decides one day to be perfect? That's perplexing...

[Miles]

If god is perfect and all knowing, then why the test?

I don't understand the question. ???

Then allow me to spell it out for you. Why does an all knowing God, who knows all the actions of all men before they occur, need to check to see what our actions will be? God was angry at Adam. Why? he knew what was going to happen before it happened. He murdered almost all of humanity in his great flood, but why would he be angry and have to start over if he knew already what would happen. It makes no sense.

[sneezer3]

Then allow me to spell it out for you. Why does an all knowing God, who knows all the actions of all men before they occur, need to check to see what our actions will be? God was angry at Adam. Why? he knew what was going to happen before it happened. He murdered almost all of humanity in his great flood, but why would he be angry and have to start over if he knew already what would happen. It makes no sense.

Because he was disappointed they picked that path. It make since if you think about it.

Here is a good example. If a Dad told a kid not to do something, and he knew they would go off and do it. why would he be disappointed?

Because he told him not to and of there on free will they did it and he is disappointed.

[Miles]

Here is a good example. If a Dad told a kid not to do something, and he knew they would go off and do it. why would he be disappointed?

Because he told him not to and of there on free will they did it and he is disappointed.

But if the dad knew absolutely that the child would choose that path, then why the dissapointment. There would be no hope that the child would chose the right path, so why hope that he would? Again, it makes no sense.

[DjCiD]

If god is perfect and all knowing, then why the test?

Maybe he's trying to prove a point.

How do you decide to be perfect? And how do you know god decides one day to be perfect?

Well if sin is our flaw then by choosing not to sin would make us flawless as we would be free from sin. Jesus made that choice, he was the perfect sacrifice. Free of sin and willing to die to pay our debts from Adam and Eves to yours and mine and everyone else's too.

"made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Cor. 5:21). (I've posted this before but it seemed to fit here too)

Why does an all knowing God, who knows all the actions of all men before they occur, need to check to see what our actions will be?

God doesn't know the next word I'm about to type until I've typed it. Yes he is all knowing but he doesn't have our actions planned out for us. We choose our own actions.

Think of it like an equation, God has set the variables and knows the final product, we Humans are the solving the problem. He knows the ultimate outcome but lets us choose our paths there. So if we messed up he would have to wipe part of the equation out to keep the same final product. Note this is my own opinion on the matter I'm not sure if anyone shares it.

[Acriku]

Well if sin is our flaw then by choosing not to sin would make us flawless as we would be free from sin.

By god's standards, sure. But it doesn't make you flawless in our standards (then again, god's standards are all that count right?).

God doesn't know the next word I'm about to type until I've typed it. Yes he is all knowing but he doesn't have our actions planned out for us. We choose our own actions.

Con-con-con-con...tradiction! (Sing to my-my-my-my...Toyota!) There is no "all-knowing" going on, if he can't know a simple thing as the next thing you would do. If god doesn't know anything that is going to happen, then he goes far down the scale of perfection and greatness.

Here is a good example. If a Dad told a kid not to do something, and he knew they would go off and do it. why would he be disappointed?

Because he told him not to and of there on free will they did it and he is disappointed.

But if he is going to punish them for doing it, then he is a bad god. Yes, I said bad god. If he really didn't want them to do it, he would have stopped it. It's like telling a mouse to not eat the cheese, but it eats it anyways, and you smash the rat's head. Yeah, that's fair.

[Aeris]

Hmph. Then how could we screw up if we were perfect?

Free will. he din't make us a bunch of robots.

God can't be perfect, because perfect is a paradox.

If something is perfect, then it should also be able to be more perfect then it self. If that is true, then there is something more perfect, so itself isn't the most perfect anymore

not when you get into infinitely.

To make a long story short. God made the the earth(stars etc) then animals then adem then eve. eve sined by eating off a tree God put off limits.(they weren't starveing they had a whole garden of other things) Eve talked adem into eating off it two.

Ever since we were sinful. Sin requires a payment, so God went on the cross to pay them and if your saved(accepted his payment John 3:16) your going to heaven.

I hope it makes a little more since now. ;)

Yeah, the bible was written by men, too. "Oh!! It was EVE! All her! She tempted me...it's not my fault!!"

And for some of the other comments, I hate it when people blame Satan for their sins. Your flaws and sins are your own problem, don't go blaming somebody else~whether somebody tempted you or not, it's still your fault if you fall under the temptation.

[Acriku]

Amen Aeris ;)

Take responsibility and enjoy the ride...

[SurlyPIG]

Man...sneezer's posts are hilarious and depressing at the same time...

Pefection is purely subjective. Not the least bit defined. Purely human. Purely impossible. Timenn's post outlined it very well.

[DjCiD]

Quote:

Well if sin is our flaw then by choosing not to sin would make us flawless as we would be free from sin.

By god's standards, sure. But it doesn't make you flawless in our standards (then again, god's standards are all that count right?).

I am very flawed when it comes to societies or TV's standards. But why should I care what they think. You are right, there is only one persons opinion I care about.

Quote:

God doesn't know the next word I'm about to type until I've typed it. Yes he is all knowing but he doesn't have our actions planned out for us. We choose our own actions.

Con-con-con-con...tradiction! (Sing to my-my-my-my...Toyota!) There is no "all-knowing" going on, if he can't know a simple thing as the next thing you would do. If god doesn't know anything that is going to happen, then he goes far down the scale of perfection and greatness.

He knows where his plan will lead, he knows all the names of the starts in the sky and the exact number of hairs on my children's head. He gives his creations free will to do as we please, he may have our fate determined but doesn't know the steps till we take them, or if we even will, he can know all of our options but not which one we choose until we choose it. Again this is just my thoughts on the matter.

[off-topic] has anyone seen the preview for Bruce Almighty? Jim Cary is talking with God and he ask to prove it by telling him how many fingers he's holding behind his back. At first he holds up 5 on one hand and 2 on the other, as God says 7 Bruce (Jim C) puts the 2 down and says wrong 5 and brings the one hand forward and he has 2 extra fingers on it to equal 7. I guess you would have to see the preview, but it was just funny ;D

heres a quicktime link to the trailer - http://www.apple.com/trailers/universal/bruce_almighty/index.html

[playerap]

look to sum this all up God made adam and eve without SIN they ahd no sin untill the devil tempted them and than sin was created !! it is a human mind to think that perfect is impossible and i dont exspect u 2 understand or anyone for that matter because i dont i believe in the bible and if u read it clearly u would make a stupid topic like this

Player

[Acriku]

Can you comprehend perfection? It's purely subjective. You can't expect us to understand what you don't understand yourself. And obviously Adam and Eve were without sin, because since a sin is doing something against god's command there was only one sin - do not eat from the two trees. But that doesn't make them perfect. Sin is not created, unless god is created as well.

[TMA_1]

it is subjective to us since we dont know and cannot comprehend perfection. If there is a perfect being though, it can contemplate it's own reality and therefor it is purly objective to that perfect being. dont be egocentric. Your thoughts arent what the world holds to, and are at times too quickly spoken.