Why are america-haters all pro-palestine?

[SurlyPIG]

Ripskar have you even read the Qur'an? A week-long trip through Israel won't give you insight into the feelings and the beliefs that drive the terrorism against innocent Jews. You think it spawns from poverty? Hardly. You think it spawns from opression? Fat chance. It spawns from the beliefs of the Palestinians. The Palestinians are not opressed. As Israeli citizens they have rights beyond the dreams of anyone in the rest of the Middle-East. You think they're opressed? Turn on your TV. Flick to BBC news. Eventually they'll show images of Palestinians in Israel. What are they doing? Protesting. They're yelling, they're marching, they're waving signs, shouting all statements anti-American, anti-Israeli, anti-Jew, praising and cheering for Saddam, and waving Iraqi flags, praising the Iraqi heroes, condeming the 'American infidels'. That is their right. Israel has never stopped them from doing so unless they became violent. You will NEVER see anything happening like that in any other middle-eastern country in the world unless it is aligned with the regime's position.

Emp already said that people in Israel have total religious freedom. You can't say that about any other Middle-Eastern country. I think Saudi Arabia has been mentioned in particular. A nurse at my mother's work volunteered for a humanitarian charity for children in Saudi Arabia when she was in her early twenties. While examining a boy with an ear infection, as she leaned over her pant leg came up past her ankle. For this, she was thrown in jail and left to rot for seven years. SEVEN YEARS - FOR ANKLE EXPOSURE. Her husband was absolutely furious and tried to campaign for the government to pressure her release. But as usual, our leftist Liberal party was too spineless to do anything.

[Edric O]

I'm sorry, Ace... :'(

But I don't understand why you blame the leftist liberals for it, when it is in fact the political right who supports the oil companies that have interests in Saudi Arabia...

[Dude_Doc]

But I don't understand why you blame the leftist liberals for it, when it is in fact the political right who supports the oil companies that have interests in Saudi Arabia...

That's not the issue. The issue is that they thorw her in jail for a pitty ankle exposure. Isn't that sick? Would you support a left-winged party that totaly ignores you when you are in jail for, say, drinking beer? Is that right?

Beside, the right only support the oil companies, not the regime. You seem to care much about oil. Isn't it better if the corporations can have their oil, and the starving people their money? After all, the faster oil runs out, the better...

[Anathema]

I know most Islamic countries are bad. In Iran rape victims are convicted for adultry (whereas the raper is usually acquited). But I don't see how that justifies supressing the Palestinians.

The Palestinian civilians (not all Palestinians are terrorists) are inevitably victims of Israelian reprisal actions. A suicide terrorist does apparently not need to consider what will happen to his family or his people afterwards, because he's going straight to heaven for carrying out Allahs will. Terrorists are either blind, or less likely uncaring, for the consequenses of their actions. Wich is why I think that Arafat and his ilk are scum, but there isn't much you can do about them.

[AWACS]

sorry to break the talk but

*YAY* I'm pro-palestine and Anti-American! :D :D

[Dude_Doc]

*YAY* I'm pro-palestine and Anti-American!

That's against the law... ;)

[SurlyPIG]

But I don't understand why you blame the leftist liberals for it, when it is in fact the political right who supports the oil companies that have interests in Saudi Arabia...

Hogwash. What do YOU know about Canadian politics? First of all, Canada imports little oil; it exports much, much more. It doesn't need nor does purchase Saudi oil in any significant quantities. And of the five major federal parties in Canada, the two right-winged parties are the ones that campaign for the release of Canadian prisoners of conscience in other countries (well one other does, the Bloc Quebecois, but they only want the release of French-Canadian prisoners). The Progressive Conservative party and the Canadian Alliance party are the only parties that ever spoke out in parliament about the current government's lack of political backbone in its foreign policy.

[Sardauker-Kirov]

Every religion can have a bad reputation, that has a power-hungry and evil religious leader.

Like Edric said, the Christians wasn't really sweethearts 100-1000 years ago. There are still some extremist Christians today though.

[Edric O]

Hogwash. What do YOU know about Canadian politics?

Nothing. And I admit it... :-[

First of all, Canada imports little oil; it exports much, much more. It doesn't need nor does purchase Saudi oil in any significant quantities. And of the five major federal parties in Canada, the two right-winged parties are the ones that campaign for the release of Canadian prisoners of conscience in other countries (well one other does, the Bloc Quebecois, but they only want the release of French-Canadian prisoners). The Progressive Conservative party and the Canadian Alliance party are the only parties that ever spoke out in parliament about the current government's lack of political backbone in its foreign policy.

Ah, now I see. Sorry for saying that earlier.

But I still don't understand how this particular issue has anything to do with the left-right political scale. I could just as well be the other way around (the leftists campaigning for release, and the rightists doing nothing). What you're saying is that THIS particular left-wing party has no backbone, not left-wing parties in general.

[Dude_Doc]

"Too bad it has to be LEFT this way."

"You did the RIGHT thing."

Maybe that's why ;) ...

[Egeides]

But I don't understand why you blame the leftist liberals for it, when it is in fact the political right who supports the oil companies that have interests in Saudi Arabia...

Hogwash. What do YOU know about Canadian politics? First of all, Canada imports little oil; it exports much, much more. It doesn't need nor does purchase Saudi oil in any significant quantities. And of the five major federal parties in Canada, the two right-winged parties are the ones that campaign for the release of Canadian prisoners of conscience in other countries (well one other does, the Bloc Quebecois, but they only want the release of French-Canadian prisoners). The Progressive Conservative party and the Canadian Alliance party are the only parties that ever spoke out in parliament about the current government's lack of political backbone in its foreign policy.

Which political party would you consider leftish in Canada? Of course, some are more eftih than others but aren't they more on the right anyway? There's a new one though... democratic something.

[AWACS]

there is no left party in england, well no major ones. Labour used to be, but then it went all over capitalism

[Warlord Ripskar]

IMHO this is a question of equality versus nationalism.

The Isreali government treats people of the Jewish faith in one way and treats people of arab origin in another way. Likewise the arab nationalists do much the same thing or would do if they had the resources.

It is the racist core of politics there that continues the cycle of violence.

A separate Palestinian state will only be painting over the cracks. In essence you have one group that define themselves as Isrealis and one that define themselves as arabs. That is the problem, "Them and Us"

Government treats them in that way as well which reinforces the divide. To separate them physically would be a mistake which Britain has practical experience of in Ireland, Cyprus and India.

There must not be 2 people, Isreali and Arab, but one, "Palestinian". Just as the terms English and Scotish divide whilst British unites.

They must be treated as if there was no divide with equal rights.

[Acriku]

Try to manage a country where palestinians bomb your civilians and buildings every damn day, and see if you don't have a hatred for these people.

[Egeides]

Warlord, it isn't only a cultural question. It's also Israel taking territory for its people with no permission. Both Israel and Palestine kill civilians on the other side (Israel 3x more than Palestine though), but Israel alone is steeling. Not counting that Israel destroyed Palestine, brang harsh curfews for Palestinians only, etc. Both population are terrorized, but only one is trying since a long time to get territory and so on. Israel attacked Egypt decades ago, Liban years ago and now Palestine. Each time with US support it gained advantages (territory...). So of course Israel has some resistance...

[SurlyPIG]

But I still don't understand how this particular issue has anything to do with the left-right political scale. I could just as well be the other way around (the leftists campaigning for release, and the rightists doing nothing). What you're saying is that THIS particular left-wing party has no backbone, not left-wing parties in general.

Huh? When I did I say that left-winged parties have no backbone? I just said that this party did. And it happens to be left-winged. I think you're getting confused by the fact that the party's actual name is Liberal. It is the Liberal Party of Canada. As for the first comment, well I'm only looking at the parties individually. The ones that campaign for the release of prisoners of conscience happen to be the two right-winged parties. The ones that don't are the two left-winged parties. The one in power just doens't have the backbone, and the other one is even worse.

Which political party would you consider leftish in Canada? Of course, some are more eftih than others but aren't they more on the right anyway? There's a new one though... democratic something.

I'll put it on a line for you;

(Communism)----------NDP-----Liberal-----|CENTER|-----PC-----CA----------(Fascim)

Liberals are in power. NDP (New Democrat Party, probably the one you're think of). I'm around the Progressive-Conservativish area.

[Egeides]

ACE, the liberal, whatever what it says, is puting the bar to the right... Same in Quebec, at the same time.

In both cases, they "unsocialized" the economy. The top XXX richest persons are richer and the poor people poorer.

[SurlyPIG]

That was a while ago. And it was like that from the PC days. They've gone the other direction, now. The last 'speech from the throne' outlined very well the left-winged legacy he wants to leave. At the same time, he ties the hands of Paul Martin or any other successor.

Even before this, it was evident in the shift of direction, such as with Air Canada and the regulated airline industry. After it swallowed Canadian Airlines, instead of churning a profit or bringing back to its investers like its supposed to it went into debt driving smaller airlines out of business. It has a total monopoly and it's failing miserably. Make way for Westjet's what I say.

EDIT : I've just realized how off-topic I am, this should end or be continued elsewhere.

[Acriku]

Warlord, it isn't only a cultural question. It's also Israel taking territory for its people with no permission. Both Israel and Palestine kill civilians on the other side (Israel 3x more than Palestine though), but Israel alone is steeling. Not counting that Israel destroyed Palestine, brang harsh curfews for Palestinians only, etc. Both population are terrorized, but only one is trying since a long time to get territory and so on. Israel attacked Egypt decades ago, Liban years ago and now Palestine. Each time with US support it gained advantages (territory...). So of course Israel has some resistance...

Egeides, you have your facts twisted. First off, Israel did have permission to take the land - from the US (President Truman, who was one of the original urgers of this), and the UN. Second, Palestinians go into Israel looking for civilians to kill, and they blow themselves up. Israel retaliates by going into Palestine and blowing up military installations and rumored sites of holding terrorists, and civilians die because of it. Israel does not intentionally kill civilians. Palestine does. Israel's military probably knows there are civilians in those sites, but they might just figure that these civilians dying to kill terrorists are equal to the civilians having died, and who will die, because of the terrorists. Who knows. The thing is, both of them aren't saints. But Palestine is the worst of the two.

[Warlord Ripskar]

Firstly it wasn't US land to give, secondly the UN allowed the Jewish groups the coastal area, not Jerusalem, not the West bank, not the Golan Heights, not Eilat and not the Gaza Strip. All those places are occupied illegally. Peace is possible, Northern Ireland proves that although the NI peace process is going into reverse at the moment. Isreal either needs to return illegally held territory or compensate the people from whom it was stolen. Terra Nullius is a flawed concept.

We have a place where government buildings are attacked daily, it's called South Armagh. The IRA used to attack the train regualarly there, now there's mainly only the Real IRA doing the killing plus various criminal groups. It's slow, painful and subject to suspension by crazed individuals but the peace process must be pushed through. Firstly you need a ceasefire, driving tanks into people houses is not going to convince the Arab groups that the Isrealis are serious about peace, Untill the government can show that it is exercising restraint there will be no real progress.

[Egeides]

Acriku, you said a few things I don't agree with...

First, "Palestine are the one that are the worst". Well they kill 1/3 of the number of civilians Israel kills.

Second, Israel kills civilians but it's not willingly. Then why the shooting on people throwing rocks? Why the shooting at sight and so on?

Third, Israel is aiming at military objectives. See my second point, but also do you know about all the buildings that were destroyed? Internet provider, etc.

Forth, Israel is only taking the territory it is permitted. The Oslo agreement wasn't followed and it's a reason why Amnistry International and many other organism are yelling after them. Otherwise, explain me why they make "archeological field" and "natural reserves" that are transformed into jewish colonization sites a little later? Explain also why they constantly take territory. Explain war to Egypt, war to Lebanon, and now Palestine. The only side that wasn't covered is the west and it's because it's Meditterranea!!

[Gobalopper]

"More than 51% see the liberation of all historic Palestine - and the removal of Israel from the map - as the true goal of the intifada."

A little hard for peace to work under those circumstances.

[Warlord Ripskar]

Well that's a somewhat uninformed view seeing as Palestine was only defined at the end of WW1. That the population don't seem to have been taught that is an indication of the inequality between the two groups.

Inequality must end.